Please help with DC wiring

Maine Sail · Feb 17, 2014

Jeunesse27 said:
Hello,

I'm trying to automate the charging of batteries on my boat. I have 2 banks (2 batteries each) which are fed to a batterie with (1,2,all,off), common goes to starter and dc panel. I have installed a xantrex charger and am currently using 2 out 3 outputs available on it (sensing and charging both banks separately), so when I'm hooked up to shore power I don't need to worry about which position the batterie switch is in and know my all my batteries will be topped up. I'd like to achieve the same thing while under power (diesel running), for this purpose I bought a blue sea ACR. However I realized a problem with this, as soon as I install the ACR between the 2 banks it will combine them when it senses charging voltage. This isn't a problem when I'm under power (exactly what I want), but it is when I'm plugged in to shore power because as soon as the xantrex starts charging the batteries the ACR will combine them all confusing the charger (it no longer sees 2 banks but 1). Any help with this would be much appreciated

Antoni

Your Xantrex (unless one of the discontinued XC series) is still one charger with one charging algorithm... Both battery banks get the same exact charge anyway..

To Rx simply drop the second output to the start battery and just feed all of it to the house bank. Let your ACR do the rest.

It would be helpful to know what model Xantrex charger you have?

Maine Sail · Feb 17, 2014

Jeunesse27 said:
I think I found the answer to my question, been looking all evening but just found this.
http://www.bluesea.com/resources/94/Multiple_Output_Battery_Chargers
Looks like I'm going to be buying one of those relays.

It says:" If you have a multi-output multi-program charger, you may want to consult the manufacturer for proper connections."

There are very, very few multi-program chargers out there and your Xantrex is not likely one of them, unless you bought one of the discontinued XC series, which were fraught with issues.. It was discontinued nearly as fast as it hit the market. Still some may be out there.

Your Xantrex is most likely a single program charger with multiple outputs..

You can just wire the charger to the house and let your ACR do the rest unless it is an XC series....

Court Crosby · Feb 17, 2014

I have a similar problem, but with two DC sources.

Solar panels wired to my house bank, and a 60 amp internally regulated alternator wired through an old isolator to the house bank but directly to the start battery (my mechanic did it). I'm concerned that this effectively by-passes my battery switch and could drain my start battery as part of the house bank.

Is it time for me to get an ACR?

Old Skool Neil · Feb 17, 2014

Automated this and ACR that

I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch.

dlochner · Feb 17, 2014

Old Skool Neil said:
I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch.

It's not the turning of the switch that is difficult, it is remembering to turn the switch that is the problem.

Or, some well intentioned crew turning the switch when you don't want to turn the switch.

Bill Roosa · Feb 17, 2014

But Old Skool, you are obviously rough and tough and have a brain. The new breed (gasp they are breeding) can't be bothered with this sort of mundane activity. Yes, they complain mightily about the cost and when it craps out without warning leaving them with a $500 sea tow charge but they are much to gentile to turn a switch.
Course you do have to know when to turn the switch so maybe that is the real problem.
as for alternator/solar integration, I'm really not caring what the solar is doing when the engine is on as it can't possibly add much compared to the alternator. When the engine is off I don't need to integrate the alternator cause it is off.
solved

Old Skool Neil · Feb 17, 2014

As I implied I'm manually switched all the way. It's a regular part of my boat management, same as fuel, sail area, water, food and drink management. As for crew or guests fiddling with battery switches or anything else, in a friendly way I make it clear from the start doing so is not appreciated. Translation: it's understood such behavior is strictly verboten. They may find themselves the guest of honor in M-O-B drills. Haven't done one of them in a while.

I have five batteries in three banks controlled by two switches, never a problem. Some of the batteries are 9 years old and still performing great so automation would do what for me?

Reading the previous link isn't it interesting . . .

When connected to shore power, you probably should disable the ACR. This can be done automatically by installing an AC driven relay to close a contact to ground when AC is available. If a manual switch is also used, the relay should be SPDT (single pole double throw) so that when AC is not present, the control line passes through the relay to the manual switch. When AC is present, the relay disconnects the ACR manual control line from the switch and connects it to system negative, shutting the ACR off.

So an ACR is great unless you're on shore power, then it should be disabled but if you also have a manual switch you should add more automation in the form of another relay just in case so if this, then that, unless something else and then another piece of junk to fail. . . . it never ends.

Bill, I'm with ya. Absolutely agree.

Stu Jackson · Feb 17, 2014

Old Skool Neil said:
. . . So an ACR is great unless you're on shore power, then it should be disabled but if you also have a manual switch you should add more automation in the form of another relay just in case so if this, then that, unless something else and then another piece of junk to fail. . . . it never ends.

Bill, I'm with ya. Absolutely agree.

Yup, a real conundrum!

We have two banks, one house, one reserve, with a combiner (functionally like an ACR). I have ONE alternator output and only ONE charger output since we have a Freedom 15 combined inverter/charger, so NO multiple charger outputs. Our alternator output and charger output go to the house bank.

I prefer simplicity. So, I turn the battery switch onto "1" and leave it there. I check the "health" of the reserve bank with our Link 2000. If the combiner ever failed (been in since 1998!), I'd just use the B position on the 1-2-B switch if I ever felt I needed to top off the reserve bank.

Man, that's complicated! :dance:

Maine Sail · Feb 17, 2014

Old Skool Neil said:
Reading the previous link isn't it interesting . . . So an ACR is great unless you're on shore power, then it should be disabled but if you also have a manual switch you should add more automation in the form of another relay just in case so if this, then that, unless something else and then another piece of junk to fail. . . . it never ends.

You did not read that carefully enough and then selectively quoted it ...

There is no need to turn off an ACR when on shore power with approx 98-99% of the shore chargers out there. These are multi-output or single output chargers with one charging program driving all outputs. This type of charger represents the vast majority of chargers used on boats..

The only time you may want to shut down the ACR is when you have a true multi-bank multi-program charger (essentially two entirely separate chargers in one box).

This is the opening paragraph that Wayne wrote and it deals with approx 98-99% of the battery chargers on boats today:

Blue Sea Systems said:

Installing an Automatic Charge Relay in a System with a Dual- or Triple-Output Battery Charger

Click to expand

Blue Sea Systems said:
Most multi-output battery chargers have only one program running to control all outputs. Therefore, the outputs proceed through bulk, absorption, float, and equalizing charging stages together. The charging unit will shift from one stage to the next when the last battery has satisfied the conditions to move from the previous stage.

Even if the Start battery is much smaller than the House battery, connecting the batteries together with an ACR or with a manual switch while fed from a multi-output charger causes no ill effects. In fact, overall system efficiency may improve.

This is what you omitted from your quote and was relevant to the quote:

Blue Sea Systems said:
In the Fall of 2005, Xantrex introduced a new multi-output charger series XC that has separate intelligence and control for each output. Having an ACR installed with this system will result in taking away some of the potential benefits of having the distinct charging profile control. Nothing will be damaged, but it may take longer to get a full charge on all batteries, or the batteries may stay in the absorption phase longer than they should. This increases the chances for over charging and may possibly lead to a shorter battery life.

If you have a multi-output multi-program charger, you may want to consult the manufacturer for proper connections.

If you have a Xantrex XC charger then there is no need to use the ACR on shore power. A simple ON/OFF switch in the neg leg can suffice.. These multi-output & multi-program chargers are rare, failed at a high rate, and were rather quickly discontinued with exception to one 24V model.

For the other 98-99% of chargers out there there is no need what so ever to shut off the ACR when shore charging..

Old Skool Neil · Feb 17, 2014

Maine Sail said:
You did not read that carefully enough and then selectively quoted it..

Did I? The only thing I left off the entire quoted paragraph discussing shore power and disabling the ACR was "A good candidate for such a relay is the Omron LY1F-AC110/120 that costs less than $7 from Digi-Key." How is such an omission pertinent to the discussion? It was nothing more than a recommendation, price and source for a relay. That approaches a forum rule against commercial advertising.

The question remains, what's so difficult about turning a battery switch? It might not be good business for marine electricians or 'internet experts' but it works and it's simple.

Look, those who want ACR's or are convinced they are the answer to charging systems, fine with me. Go right ahead.

Maine Sail · Feb 17, 2014

Old Skool Neil said:
Did I? The only thing I left off the entire paragraph discussing shore power and disabling the ACR was "A good candidate for such a relay is the Omron LY1F-AC110/120 that costs less than $7 from Digi-Key." How is such an omission pertinent to the discussion? It was nothing more than a recommendation, price and source for a relay. That approaches a forum rule against commercial advertising.

What is pertinent is that the paragraph you quoted applies to one battery charger, that was sold for a very short period of time, and was then discontinued. The proverbial needle in the hay stack situation. Wayne however is a very thorough guy and tries to cover all bases so he wrote that piece specifically to address the Xantrex XC charger..

The part you quoted goes with the above two paragraphs I quoted in the above post in order to make it relevant.

The first paragraph, which you ignored, applies to the other 98-99% of battery chargers.

Old Skool Neil said:
The question remains, what's so difficult about turning a battery switch? It might not be good business for marine electricians or 'internet experts' but it works and it's simple.

Sadly that was not the question, at all. I had already answered the OP's question, about what he's asked or was confused about. You simply wanted to insert you opinion that these devices are not necessary but never took an opportunity to help him answer his actual question..

Heck boats are not necessary, so why do you have one?? Why not just poop in a bucket? Flush heads are not really necessary and are just more stuff to break.. Why even have batteries or an engine? I mean after all we own sailboats...?

We all know you and Bill do not like ACR's, BTDT. Almost every time this subject has come up you two beat up on them. Still many, many, many boaters love them. Some like mid boom sheeting, some of us prefer end boom....

Old Skool Neil said:
Look, those who want them or are convinced they are the answer to charging systems, fine with me. Go right ahead.

Those who own them find they make things simpler. What may be a benefit to them, may not be to you. No big deal.. I have a customer who has a composting head. His boat smells like, well...... CRAP. He has a tough time grasping how we have all that fancy and complicated plumbing, that has zero odor...... To each his own..

Old Skool Neil · Feb 17, 2014

Maine Sail said:
To each his own.

As long as that applies to ALL of us meaning me too, we're good.

BTW, the battery switch question was all mine and as such it still lingers. I did not mean to imply it belonged to anyone else.

NorthStar · Feb 17, 2014

Modern day designs use one house bank with all your house batteries connected together, the alternator charges them, your solar panels charge them, your battery charger on shore power charges them. The engine start battery is charged by an echo charger connected to the house bank. Very simple. In case the engine start battery should fail a switch connecting the house bank to the starter is a good emergency contingency.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Feb 17, 2014

Wow- I feel under equipped. ( one)12 volt battery, ( one) solar panel, no engine alternator and zero AC on the boat. And several years live aboard.

Posted definitely tongue in cheek from an admitted Luddite

mitiempo · Feb 17, 2014

Jeunesse27 said:
If it is why did they bother putting 3 outputs?

Some have 2 or 3 banks and without an ACR or EchoCharge the 3 banks allow you to turn the main switch off at the dock and still charge all banks.

As far as sizing the charger to the batteries it isn't that important. At a given voltage, usually about 14.4 for bulk, the battery is the determining factor, not the charger. Flooded batteries will accept about 25% of their capacity at most, but Agm batteries will accept at least 50% of capacity, often a lot more. Most often you see large banks charged with small chargers, not the other way around.

Please help with DC wiring

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