Please be gentle while I consider reinventing the wheel

[Kermit]

I've cleaned and bleached my teak and holly sole. I've had one person suggest putting 2 coats of clear Helmsman spar urethane. Another suggested West Systems Epoxy and then Epifanes clear varnish to finish it off. Neither option sounds like it will add color to my very light-colored sole. We really want to add richness to it while protecting it. Which leads me to my question... Would using deck stain that includes a sealant be a bad idea? It would add a nice color and protect the wood at the same time. But something is telling me that if it were a good idea God and everybody would already be using it.
What say you?

 

[dLj]

Try looking into this:

http://epoxy-it.com/ss/epoxy-adhesion-over-stains/

I'd use a compatible stain as desired on the wood, then use West System epoxy over top. Finish on top of that as desired.

dj

 

[NYSail]

to bad ultimate sole is not around anymore. I used on mine and the stuff was the best..... enough tack, great protection, very durable

 

[Ted]

I would use Epifanes varnish. You'll be surprised at how dramatic a difference in color and depth the first coat will be. Subsequent multiple coats will enrich it even further. In theory using epoxy with varnish over it for UV protection is also a good method unless something goes wrong. Removing epoxy at a later date is not an easy task. Most teak and holly plywood is made with a very thin veneer at the exposed face. Sanding the epoxy would be the only option to remove it as chemical strippers would only remove the varnish. It is easy to sand through the thin veneer. I'd stick with varnish as it's easier to repair in the event of damage to the finish in the future. I'd stay away from deck stains as you may have uncertain results which would not look like a rich traditional finish that you are trying to achieve.

 

[agprice22]

Epoxy will discolor in sunlight, so you will get a shadow near the companionway sole.

 

[Charles Erwin]

Don't know what you used for your clean and bleach - and it might matter what ever topcoat you choose. If Oxalic then use neutralizer for sure before any further finishing. I usually scrape the old surface to bare wood with a razor sharp card scraper - removes the old finish gossamer thin - no dust, no mess, very effective.

If things are way clean consider West 105 with 207 hardener. This makes a water clear mix. Then any of the top coats mentioned here. I used Epihanes for many years - very good stuff - but I no longer make a big deal about it. With a super clear epoxy undercoat - it really is a matter of what topcoat (varnish) wears best underfoot and whether you are willing to keep the topcoat intact every so often.

Charles

 

[capta]

I think your problem is the epoxy will not add the color and depth you are looking for.
Personally, I think Captain's spar varnish is by far the richest, deepest varnish on the market, but I doubt that it would hold up well as a floor varnish. Unfortunately, the epoxy won't adhere well to varnish, so you will have to decide on color or a long lasting coating, as you probably won't get both at this point.
Perhaps there is an epoxy based sealer/stain, I do not know.

 

[Charles Erwin]

'Unfortunately, the epoxy won't adhere well to varnish,'

My experience is to the contrary. After thousands of sq. feet I have no hesitation with any varnish over epoxy provided the amine is washed off (warm water does the trick. ) I personally think failure to follow directions (most particularly amine blush elimination) is probably why this epoxy non-adhesion rumor persists.

Manufacturers spend millions making certain their products work. The number one reason for adhesion failures is that the person applying the material ignores all the work and advice the manufacturer put into the product and the instructions that they publish.

Follow exactly the manufacturer instructions - your results will be primo - rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.

Charles

 

[SFS]

Charles, you are talking about varnish over epoxy, whereas capta is talking about epoxy over varnish.

When I made new soles for my boat last year, West Systems told me that their epoxy would not stick to varnish, and warned me that I even needed to go so far as to use a water based stain on my wood, before covering in epoxy. An oil based stain would have also prevented the epoxy from adhering (again, according to the manufacturer.

 

[Chief RA]

Kermit: Here is something different for you. For 17 years on my Clipper Marine 26 I used oil stain mixed in motor oil for a wood finish. Fresh coat of oil each spring and she was ready to go! The reason for motor oil is its enduring qualities as it does not wash out easily due to its chemical characteristics, density and linkage. Soaks in well and deep and wood provides a good grip instead of slick. Any scratches to the wood, just sand and reoil the spot. Still use motor oil for many wood applications. No, it doesn't stink! My best, Chief

 

[jwing]

Waterlox Marine can be used over stained wood. https://waterlox.com/project-help/guide?id=9d449b91-84ef-4cd7-ac16-6663037254aa&q=

 

[Calif. Ted]

I'd use stain and poly-u, you can use Spar (Helmsman) if you want but I don't think the UV protection really necessary in the cabin. I like the Minwax finishes because they don't add a lot of "amber" color and are quite clear, you can get a good estimate just by getting the wood wet. Some brands add more "amber", McClosky comes to mind like their "Man of War" spar varnish, so you could experiment a little to see if you find a varnish or poly that adds the color you want.
http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains-color-guide/
http://www.minwax.com/wood-products...ishes/interior/minwax-fastdrying-polyurethane

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

One point on a varnished sole- Make SURE you add some non skid of some sort. Gloss or semigloss varnish can be a skating rink with wet feet. Once while singlehanding I found myself flat on my back on the cabin sole when I popped below to grab something- with all sail up!!

 

[Gunni]

SFS has the skinny. You can use a stain under epoxy but it has to be a water based. And you ALWAYS want to finish off an epoxy job with varnish because as Andrew notes, epoxy has no, zero UV protect capability. On a sole I would want strong protection from dropped and dragged items, that means epoxy, maybe even with glass. But if you are not concerned with the ultimate wear surfaces you just might get the look with a good spar varnish. It will darken the wood grain. One other thing to consider if you stain, it will also color your light holly. So if you were not able to bleach to a uniform color then matching a stain to the wood discoloration is a remedy. Always helps to test on an out-of-the-way section.

 

[TomY]

If the sole has no finish and is clean, you could use a marine sealer stain, like Interlux. It's nice stuff and easy to work with. The colors you can get are deep and rich and it's a sealer that speeds filling the grain. This is Interlux Sealer stain on old mahogany, stripped and sanded.

As to the finish, I don't ever use epoxy under or over spar varnish. Plus, I think you may get some un-even discoloration with it.

I use straight gloss spar varnish on my solid teak on holly sole. I had to pull some of my sole up this spring. I figured I would sand it and add a coat of spar varnish. After looking closely at it, I decided it didn't need it. The gloss is mat now from 15 seasons of use, but the finish is still good and protecting the wood.

Without sun, it's amazing how long spar varnish will last below decks.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Staining teak and HOLLY will be pretty hard to keep the stain off the holly. IMHO
I've used polyurethane with good results. it does take a lot of work though. Did the teak table and after something like 8 light (drys much quicker and less chance for stuff to land on it) coats and moving from 150 to 400 to 600 grit sand paper it looks like glass. The real key is a good brush and clean environment (aka not the workshop but at the boat)

 

[jmce1587]

Kermit. Attached are pics of new teak and holly sole bare and then with 2 coats of West epoxy with a high gloss urethane top coat (3). West Epoxy with clear hardener left a rich color in my opinion. Let me know if any questions.

 

[NotCook]

Would using deck stain that includes a sealant be a bad idea? It would add a nice color and protect the wood at the same time. But something is telling me that if it were a good idea God and everybody would already be using it.
What say you?

We use Epiphanes High Gloss exclusively. I like that it has UV protection that epoxy typically does not. One thing I have found is, after cleaning and/or sanding, when I wipe the residue of with mineral spirits i see the same color that I will see when I apply the varnish. The final color shows while the mineral spirits are still wet, then fades back to the very light pale as the mineral spirits evaporate.

I've included a couple of photos of Epiphanes on unstained teak. The photo of the pins is after 2 coats, the table top is after 8 coats.

I have a related question: Is just standard Epiphanes High Gloss suitable for the sole, or will the abraision be too hard on it? Is there another product that is more suitable for the sole, which sees virtually no direct sunlight?

 

[agprice22]

I quit... I will never have Bronze belaying pins... I do not think I can bear to go on living without them... ugh. Those damn things are just too pretty.
Nice boat!

 

[Mrlee]

Hi, I just installed a new sole in my I30 and I used a wood called guanacaste. Here in Mexico teak is either non-existant or so expensive it's non-existant. I first used a 2 part polyurethant with a gloss finish...I didn't like it. Any and every little thing or imperfection seemed to be magnified. So, I sanded it and repainted with 2 part polyurethane semi-gloss...It's still a bit dirty but I think it looks great!