Plan to Save or to Abandon the Ship?

[Daveinet]

I just read all 4 pages of this. One thing that is not mentioned is the inherent buoyancy of the boats construction material. Yes, I am fully aware that fiberglass sinks, but that does not mean that it has zero buoyancy. The material does displace water, so what ever water it displaces, is water one does not need to displace to float it. It only takes a small amount of additional buoyancy to float fiberglass. Technically your biggest enemy in a sinking boat is your ballast. How many fiberglass boats without floatation stay afloat due to trapped air. I would contend that you probably don't need any where near the additional floatation as is originally expected. All that nice woodwork and plastic is positive buoyancy. I would suggest keeping a boat full of water floating may not be as difficult as first imagined. Even more so for a water ballasted boat, as the displacement is completely neutralizes the weight.

 

[Skipper]

Technically your biggest enemy in a sinking boat is your ballast.

Yes, I think boats should have a release lever to eject the keel.

Boy that would be a nasty joke to play on your buddy, while he hummed away at the helm, sipping root beer, wind in his hair.. then...

 

[Chris Patterson]

That's called 'The Italian barrel roll'..

 

[Daveinet]

Yes, I think boats should have a release lever to eject the keel.

Boy that would be a nasty joke to play on your buddy, while he hummed away at the helm, sipping root beer, wind in his hair.. then...

Reminds me of how we used to pull up next to the sport bikes at a stop light. Just as the light turned green, we would reach over and slap their kill switch, and just quietly drive off.

Anyone good with a lasso? Might be a good racing strategy.

 

[jibes138]

in order to float the boat must displace a volume of water equal to the weight of the boat. How the boat is constructed or which element of the boat has a higher density does not matter. While many people focus on a boat sinking the reality is many boats are abandoned because the people can't take the conditions and the boat is then found floating fine after the storm. The Fastnet Race was a good example of this. Many people went into life rafts and some died but very few boats actually sank. Of equal concern to sinking should be hypothermia. If the boat is floating but you are soaking wet with a boat half full of water you can still die from exposure. All of the crew of the Bounty had survival suits on when they were rescued. This was in an area where the water temp was probably around 70 to 72 at that time of year. How many pleasure craft carry survival suits as standard equipment? Even a wet suit will give you a lot of time in the water. 70 to 72 is the water temp in southern new England in the middle of the summer. Up in Maine you are looking at water temps in the 50's in summer. As regards to buoyancy, calculate the water displacement needed to float your boat in volume, then collect empty 12 ounce water bottles with caps to equal the displacement you need. Fill plastic containers with the empty water bottles and use cheap straps to hold the covers on the containers. Then place the containers in your boat so they don't float away. You can buy all kinds of closed cell foam but empty water bottles are free and so is the air inside them. People are building whole boats out of empty water bottles.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

What's the substitute for a liferaft?

So, the point is, if you find yourself in a position like that, no check lists or back up check lists are going to help. Hard work and being educated are, IMO, what will get you through. I sincerely believe to this day, if we had jumped in the life raft we would have died a horrible death as it was flicked across the seas by the wind and waves.

Left un-noticed in Capta's account is the implication that they had a life raft, and if the boat had suffered enough damage that they couldn't keep it afloat, they would have had no choice but to get into it.

I'm in full agreement that it is far more important to be prepared with knowledge and materials to stem the tide of water ingress so that a sinking boat can be saved. I'll also acknowledge that modern communications make it more likely that rescue will arrive before the need to get into the life raft.

But ultimately, if the damages can't be repaired and rescue doesn't arrive in time, there is no doubt that a life raft is the last resort. Engine and electrical dewatering has limits; and a husband/wife team can't bail for long. That's pretty much what it comes down to.

Filling a heavy-displacement sailboat with home-made flotation devices is just silliness. Reinforcing the impact zones and building water-tight compartments are all well and good if you have the budget to build that into your boat; and if you do, I'm in full endorsement.

For the most part, if you are an off-shore sailor, I don't really think there is a substitute for not having a life raft without accepting the risk of having nothing to fall back on. Those Texas university sailors/racers ended up in the Gulf of Mexico for over 24 hours before they were found. I'd bet they wished they had a life raft.

 

[Daveinet]

So here you go:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-4686-buoyancybags.aspx
CO2 cartridges and several 400 lb buoyancy bags could be a pretty reasonable solution to keeping the boat afloat. Until they are inflated, they can be stored flat. I would suggest several of these stashed under your cushions and you never know they were there as far as loosing storage space. Just don't forget you have them

 

[Delezynski]

So here you go:
http://www.apsltd.com/c-4686-buoyancybags.aspx
CO2 cartridges and several 400 lb buoyancy bags could be a pretty reasonable solution to keeping the boat afloat. Until they are inflated, they can be stored flat. I would suggest several of these stashed under your cushions and you never know they were there as far as loosing storage space. Just don't forget you have them

As I posted way back. Years ago there was a company that installed this sort of system. It looked great on paper.

BUT, if you are cruising full time, they CAN NOT just live under the cushions, they just wear through. :cry: If it would have been a viable system, the company would still be in business.

Greg

 

[Kings Gambit]

Talking recently to the captain of a work vessel about pumping capacity, I was reminded of the relevance of compartmentalized bilge alarms to quickly locate a leak. I know large powerboats have 'em in the engine compartment (b/c that's where they are most likely to spring a leak!), but what about sailboats, say, 40' or over? If a sailboat can spring a leak at the dock and sink; why not at anchor during the night w/ you might be "asleep"? Catching it early b/f too much water ingresses would assist the dewatering operation. This is not the same thing as a float switch. Anybody here use 'em?

 

[Prime Time]

I'm enjoying this thread. So many important issues raised here. 1. How to find source of water. 2. How to stop or reduce ingress. 3. How to remove the water 4. How and when to abandon ship. 5. How to increase chance of rescue.
These are all critical issues for anyone sailing beyond the confines of a bay or lake. The safety at sea seminars are excellent and cover these issues. I have attended two of them and learned a lot. Over the last six years I have transformed my coastal cruising Bristol 43.3 into an ocean racing sailboat having been to Bermuda 3 times in her. In 2013, coming back through a full gale with some 30 ft breaking waves, and in 2014 coming back 18 hours ahead of a hurricane, I was thinking about these issues deeply!

Preparation is the key! Drilling is the key! Just like a navy damage control party.

Have a high water alarm
Know where every thru hull is and have every crew member find them all. Drill doing this in the dark.
Post a diagram with the location of all thru hulls and emergency equipment.
Have tapered plugs lashed to each thru hull
Have a emergency box with the nerf football, foam cone, silicon rescue tape, epoxy putty etc ready.
We have pre cut plywood with holes pre drilled in the middle for a threaded rod and some 2x4 material pre drilled to replace stoved in ports and hatches. We have a plan to use a Dacron jib sail as a collision mat to slow ingress.
Have a ditch bag and a way to clip it to someone or the raft.
Have an emergency communication plan.

To remove water: ISAF regs require 2 manual bilge pumps with one able to be operated from below and one above decks with all hatches to below closed. I also think my WC skipper heads would have excellent ability to pump out water. 2 buckets with lanyards.

We have the typical set up of one low electric pump and one larger capacity higher. We added a third one this past yr. In a pinch, the two shower sump pumps could also help.

I have been on the fence about installing a T into the engine intake for additional pumping. Probably will add one to my generator instead. I like the idea of a high capacity belt driven pump but not sure if I have the room.


The crew has assignments for emergency situations of fire, water intrusion, MOB, and abandoning ship. We do drills before every race.

How much water does it take to sink your boat? A lot more than you think. John Kretchmer describes being waist high in a 40 something foot boat that was flooding from a siphoning electric bilge pump.

The prior off the cuff calculations on how much flotation one would need is interesting. They may not be considering the change in displacement that occurs during flooding as the boat sinks further into the water. I believe Etap builds boats with foam cored hulls that are unsinkable.

 

[JVB]

"Better living thru chemistry" used to be some company's slogan. Why hasn't somebody proposed do it yourself styrofoam. When your boat is filling with water just mix the chemicals to generate foam inside the boat.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Given that we continue to discuss this subject often, I thought the following report might be of interest to others as well.
KG
http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/life-in-a-liferaft-2-28955

 

[Ron20324]

[QUOTE="JVB...Why hasn't somebody proposed do it yourself Styrofoam.When your boat is filling with water just mix the chemicals to generate foam inside the boat.[/QUOTE]

You can buy it in a can, as home insulation. I guess you could shoot it into a bag to make for easier cleanup. Same as filling a tube on a dingy when it has a bad air leak.

 

[Franklin]

I just read most of this thread now. Wow

1) I would never buy a boat with no deep bilge. Hunters get a bad rep, but I gotta tell ya, some things about my boat I really love like the 2' deep bilge inside the keel (the keel stub). In there I have a Rule 2000 as a primary and a Rule 3700 as a secondary just 6 inches above the primary. The secondary is connected to an alarm.

I've had problems with my primary a few times in the 12 years I've had this boat so I can tell ya it gets the heart going when that alarm goes off, especially when offshore I opened 2 seacocks and timed how long it took to fill the bilge to 3/4 full and then closed them, connected the batteries and times how long it took for the pumps to empty it. It took 54 seconds to fill but only 26 seconds for the secondary pump to turn off. Now an open seacock is not the same thing as a busted off seacock, but it sure did give me some confidence in the pumps.

2) I once had a problem with water coming in but to make the story short, my pumps were not working due to the wire connectors corroding. I now cover them with caulking to make sure all water stays out but the moral of this note is that I had to bail. I could only get a 6 qt pan into the bilge but that was enough to keep up with the water coming in. I was in really good shape then, but after 40 minutes of it I was getting real tired. I fixed the pumps and all was good after that.

3) having a deep bilge and strong pumps give you more time to find the leak. Very hard to find a leak when the leaky area is under water.

4) I really like the idea of an inside manual pump. I only have the outside one near the helm

5) When sailing I keep my ditch bag under the captain's chair. I keep the life raft in a lazarette. Both can be retrieved after a capsize - a lot of keel where the boat doesn't right itself. Inside that ditch bag I have everything...food, signal devices, radio, EPIRB, ... It is the most important thing so it is right there with me. A life jacket can keep you from drowning, the lift rafe is to keep you from freezing and being eaten after the boat has sunk. The lift raft can be deployed after everything is in the water. I think I would rather attempt to inflate it when I am in the water than to inflate it from the boat and risk a puncture.

6) My Hunter also does not have a hole in the hull if the rudder is gone. The rudder is glassed all the way up to the cockpit floor. I love that feature. I do not have to worry about sinking if something knocks out the rudder. The shaft is composite designed to break off instead of bend under a massive strike that might tear a hole in the hull. Hunter did a lot of great stuff on my boat (but also some bone-headed stuff in carpentry stuff). I know that boat builders don't normally do that because it does not allow for an autopilot to be attached to the rudder post, but I'll take safety over that.

So, I will never own a boat without a deep bilge and big pumps. It just makes sense. If the boat builder didn't make it with a deep bilge then in my opinion, the builder did not have safety first in mind. Sounds funny coming from a Hunter owner, doesn't it?

 

[Michael Davis]

Note the 1979 Fasnet race where several boats were abandoned and servived but the crew in their life-rafts were never found. Always better to step UP to your life-raft!

 

[jeepbluetj]

Rather than caulking a connection - use good quality adhesive heat-shrink connectors. They're by design very waterproof.

 

[Franklin]

Rather than caulking a connection - use good quality adhesive heat-shrink connectors. They're by design very waterproof.

I use those too, but do not trust them alone and they don't work well when you need to connect three wires. A good caulking works perfectly every time.

 

[Gunni]

KG: Try a few of these inexpensive battery powered water detectors scattered in bilge locations:
http://www.honeywellstore.com/store...rm-rwd21.htm?gclid=CLz3k9vz59ECFU5YDQod7YMPxg

 

[Kings Gambit]

OK--good suggestion. Thanks.

 

[Daveinet]

Anyone ever tried this stuff?
http://www.flexsealproducts.com/product/flextape_large/?gclid=COKFmamS6dECFdgDgQod2dMKCA
While always leery of highly promoted "amazing" products, just curious if anyone has ever used this stuff? Since it is designed to stick under water, it may make an emergency repair if it actually works as promoted.