Plan to Save or to Abandon the Ship?

Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
The Jabsco 11870 engine mounted bilge pump, pumping a 10-ft head of water, is rated to deliver 62 GPM at 1750 rpm. A second, 3700 GPH Rule electric running under the same head, should put out another 30 GPM. That should cover it. Together, the cost of the two pumps is only about $1,000, perhaps a little more.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Any of your impeller / centrifugal pumps are going to be subject to debris clogging, impeller failure, electrical failure, and engine failure. At which point your pumping plan stops. These are not trash pumps, and your bilge will have trash. There is a great deal of experience with emergency pumping using a diaphragm type pump. They ARE trash pumps. Here is a youtube from the Safety at Sea seminar regarding emergency pumping with a diaphragm pump.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I guess I might be able to say "different stokes for different folks." My Bavaria has sail drive propulsion; i.e., there is no shaft out the back. Consequently, it seems, there is no need for a deep "common bilge." The bottom is relatively flat, so bilge water is "spread out" rather than accumulated in one deep place. There are compartments which are isolated, at least to the height of the athwart-ship stringers. Short version--the bilges are easy to keep clean; pull up the holly sole and mop. I also flood the bilges periodically with fresh water wash downs of other, higher (inside) areas and pump out. When the boat was new there was a lot of wood debris (sawdust and shavings) coming down; but no more. So, there is no debris or trash in my bilge; not to say it could not get there if the boat rolled over, etc.

My point--a boat that is "holed" will see water flood into a clean bilge on my boat; thus, high capacity pumps are needed to meet that inflow while we hunt down and plug the leak. If the boat rolls over and gets water inside while dumping trash all over the place; then yeah--the impeller pumps will likely clog out. BUT--unless there's a doghouse missing and you're likely to take another roll and you are not yet sinking--you can apply the slower, manual dewatering methods [diaphragm pump(s) of your U-tube], or buckets. [But remember, "the best laid plans often go awry!" & "It's possible to do everything right, and still lose." It's the ocean, after all!]
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Your boat is not significantly different in construction than any of the flat bottom production boats of the last 20 years with the exception of that recent innovation - the sail drive bladder. It's integrity would concern me more than being "holed". Well, I guess it is a built-in hole with a big gasket. :neutral:

They all have molded grids and stringers that divide up a shallow bilge, and they also have limber holes to gravity drain the boat to a low point. You need an emergency bilge pump with a movable pickup to find that location. A boat that has been knocked down looks like a yard sale below, and even if your sole is secured, debris easily finds its way into the bilges, soggy bits and pieces - being sucked there.

What if you go down by the bow? Will your engine driven pump prime? Will your engine run? Will your electric pump reach? Will your batteries flood and short. Have your breakers already shorted?

Having done this once, I can say that the best tool aboard was a pickle bucket. It worked. Now I have the edson diaphragm. I installed an extra electric pump, thought about it, and took it back out. I considered a y-valve on my raw water pump and decided I would rather have my engine running on filtered sea water. Looking at your belt drive impeller pump I see complexity and an engine compromised by another belt failure. Good luck.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
The large diaphragm-covered hole in the boat does concern me. But, there is an inside and outside diaphragm layer with an alarm. If the outside one starts leaking, the alarm supposedly goes off while the inside one protects. If the leg gets hit, however, and rips them both out--or whatever--probably have only a few seconds--doubtful enough to deploy a lift raft unless I'm holding on to it (valise) already, jump in the water with it, and inflate it there? If the bow floods first (most likely if a strike); then you're likely going to lose several minutes trying to get an hose extension up there from the engine pump; maybe put you 200 to 300 gallons behind to start with.
 
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Oct 2, 2008
3,807
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
http://www.subsalve.com/itc_max.htm

just tossing this out for discussion ... I'm wondering about these large kevlar bags. Inflate and fill the v-berth. Inflate and fill the head. Inflate and fill the aft-berth. Would this provide enough flotation / water displacement to keep the boat afloat? Anyone guess the cost of such a system if it is even a feasible one?
A friend of mine had a Cape Dory with an inflatable system built in to it, never had to use it.

All U Get
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Some thoughts.

First, if you have a significant breach of hull integrity below the waterline, you have to stop it. If you do not, all the pumps and hose re-routing tricks in the world will not save you. Do all the GPH math you want, but you have to stop the water. It comes in WAY too fast.

Pumps are not a replacement for a raft. Ever. If you don't want to get a raft fine, but don't think that pumps will make up for that.

Second,

The old nugget about 'not stepping into a liferaft until you have to step up into it' has been disavowed by modern safety at sea experts. Once you know you are sinking, (and you WILL know) get into the raft at the first safe opportunity. Waiting to the last second often is not a safe moment and typically causes problems.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Some thoughts.

First, if you have a significant breach of hull integrity below the waterline, you have to stop it. If you do not, all the pumps and hose re-routing tricks in the world will not save you. Do all the GPH math you want, but you have to stop the water. It comes in WAY too fast.

Pumps are not a replacement for a raft. Ever. If you don't want to get a raft fine, but don't think that pumps will make up for that.

Second,

The old nugget about 'not stepping into a life raft until you have to step up into it' has been disavowed by modern safety at sea experts. Once you know you are sinking, (and you WILL know) get into the raft at the first safe opportunity. Waiting to the last second often is not a safe moment and typically causes problems.
Well, then what are bilge pumps really good for if they cannot save the ship, or be trusted to save the ship? Merely to pump out water from a leaking stuffing box or a weeping through hull?; or to buy time while you find your ditch bag and wrestle to get the life raft deployed? All yachts come with at least two installed-- an electric and a manual. What are we supposed to do with 'em? I guess that's my dilemma.

Of course you have to stop the water ingress if you can, and then pump out the water if you're not sinking already. But who can do two things at once--find and plug a leak AND get the life raft in the water with everybody safely aboard, etc. We're probably talking only minutes in which the critical decision [choice] is made. That's what I'm asking [in this thread]--what would be YOUR plan? If you buy a $6,000 offshore life raft with annual cost of $1,000 to certify it--it seems the plan is to abandon the ship, b/c--as you and others have said, the stock dewatering system on a boat will not keep it afloat for long.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
In more than twenty years of reading sailing stories I have only read about a half dozen stories of a boat being so badly damaged that sinking was complete in minutes. Short of a collision with a semi-submerged hard object any holes in the boat that start leaking are already in the boat. If you can gain access to them you can plug them.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
In more than twenty years of reading sailing stories I have only read about a half dozen stories of a boat being so badly damaged that sinking was complete in minutes. Short of a collision with a semi-submerged hard object any holes in the boat that start leaking are already in the boat. If you can gain access to them you can plug them.
I have to agree, generally. If you read BOATUS magazine you find that most sinkings are at the dock; nearly all fatalities on boats are due to falling overboard, typically while intoxicated and w/o a life jacket; by collision with some dope in a powerboat speeding through congested areas; or by being overcome with carbon monoxide. A tiny, tiny fraction of yachts are lost at sea with fatalities--and most of the ones that are lost are lost from grounding. Of course, it's only a tiny fraction of yachts that ever go to sea--a very high majority stay in the slip 95%-100% of the time. So, naturally that's where most of the sinkings would occur.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Well, then what are bilge pumps really good for if they cannot save the ship, or be trusted to save the ship? Merely to pump out water from a leaking stuffing box or a weeping through hull?; or to buy time while you find your ditch bag and wrestle to get the life raft deployed? All yachts come with at least two installed-- an electric and a manual. What are we supposed to do with 'em? I guess that's my dilemma.

Of course you have to stop the water ingress if you can, and then pump out the water if you're not sinking already. But who can do two things at once--find and plug a leak AND get the life raft in the water with everybody safely aboard, etc. We're probably talking only minutes in which the critical decision [choice] is made. That's what I'm asking [in this thread]--what would be YOUR plan? If you buy a $6,000 offshore life raft with annual cost of $1,000 to certify it--it seems the plan is to abandon the ship, b/c--as you and others have said, the stock dewatering system on a boat will not keep it afloat for long.
First part, No they cannot be trusted to save your boat. They MIGHT. In the ideal situation. But mostly they are a tool that will help de-water your boat after ingress has been stopped or radically slowed. Or help stem the tide, but most often that's a losing battle,


Second part, Its a great question.

Every boat's answer must be tailored to their sailing program, For us, that's 2-4 up cruising all over lake superior, or full crewed racing across the great lakes. Lake Superior is COLD, so Job#1 is staying out of the water. With inReach, DSC, and EPHRBs help is not far from finding you, but you have to stay alive till then.

For the cruising side, we have a Winslow 4-person emergency raft. Think it costs about $1600. Re-cert is $300, every three years. Its not an ocean raft for 8, but we don't need that when cruising. We need to stay out of the water.

http://www.liferaftstore.com/Winslow-Rescue-Raft--4-Man_p_109.html#tab-2

For racing big-lake events we rent a ocean raft for the whole team.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
In more than twenty years of reading sailing stories I have only read about a half dozen stories of a boat being so badly damaged that sinking was complete in minutes. Short of a collision with a semi-submerged hard object any holes in the boat that start leaking are already in the boat. If you can gain access to them you can plug them.
Yes, but that's to my point. If you snap off your knot-log impeller and open a 1.5 inch hole on the bottom of your boat to the sea, I can guarantee your pumps will not keep up with that and you will sink. Plug it however, and your pumps will do a great job of de-watering!

The sinking does not have to happen in a few minutes. It just has to happen before help arrives.

The OPs question was about pumps vs rafts. My is point is that all the pumps on board will not eliminate the value of a raft. Having more pumping capacity might help a bit, and might make you feel better about not having a raft.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I was messing around with various materials for plugging leaks and discovered the modern disposable diapers will effectively plug a 4 inch PVC pipe 10 feet long and filled with water.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I was messing around with various materials for plugging leaks and discovered the modern disposable diapers will effectively plug a 4 inch PVC pipe 10 feet long and filled with water.
Is that with, or without, contents?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
The one I tried was new but in an emergency I don't believe I would be picky.
 
May 10, 2004
180
Catalina 30 Puget Sound
for smaller holes in the hull, I read somewhere that you can jam a nerf football into the hole and twist it. It will keep the water out. I carry two sizes on board.. SS
 
Nov 19, 2011
1,489
MacGregor 26S Hampton, VA
This is fun to read. My luck is that I would seal the hole, pump out the water then when finally sitting down to catch my breath and the rescue airplane would fall out of the sky and kill me anyway.