Plan to Save or to Abandon the Ship?

Jan 1, 2006
7,069
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Well that's an idea! How many air bags would it take to keep a average offshore keelboat afloat? What if they blew out the side of a boat with strapping under the hull integrated in the layup? Or were incorporated into the the hull/deck joint and ended up like a Walker Bay with flotation? Think of it as air bags for keelboats. Too complicated, too expensive, probably. But it seems doable.
 
Jan 22, 2008
551
NorSea 27 Az., Doing the To-Do list
Well that's an idea! How many air bags would it take to keep a average offshore keelboat afloat? What if they blew out the side of a boat with strapping under the hull integrated in the layup? Or were incorporated into the the hull/deck joint and ended up like a Walker Bay with flotation? Think of it as air bags for keelboats. Too complicated, too expensive, probably. But it seems doable.
Have to bring it up. That's an old idea. They used to sell (back in the late 60s and 70s) a system that could be retro-fit into any boat. It never did sell very well. Took up a LOT of space inside the hull and would wear in areas that were often sat on.

Also, you have to know that the life of a raft or inflatable sides are not very long in the open sea and tropics!

The cost to design and build it into a boat at manufacturing was BIG!!!

Greg
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Have to bring it up. That's an old idea. They used to sell (back in the late 60s and 70s) a system that could be retro-fit into any boat. It never did sell very well. Took up a LOT of space inside the hull and would wear in areas that were often sat on. Also, you have to know that the life of a raft or inflatable sides are not very long in the open sea and tropics! The cost to design and build it into a boat at manufacturing was BIG!!! Greg
all small boats have flotation. My boat is about 11000 pounds. At say 8 pounds a gallon that's 1375 gallons. There are 7.4 gallons in a cubic foot. So 185 cubic feet of closed cell foam will float my boat. If I was going transatlantic a block of foam 6x6x5 will do the trick. So just fill the v berth half full and the quarter berth and the boat won't sink. Or you could use empty plastic water bottles . This sounds very realistic.
 
Jan 22, 2008
551
NorSea 27 Az., Doing the To-Do list
all small boats have flotation. ...SNIP...
Not sure what you are talking about??? :confused: Our Nor'Sea 27 is a small boat but does NOT have positive flotation.

...SNIP ... If I was going transatlantic a block of foam 6x6x5 will do the trick. So just fill the v berth half full and the quarter berth and the boat won't sink. Or you could use empty plastic water bottles . This sounds very realistic.
And where do you store all of the other items that are REQUIRED to live?

When heading out cruising, every storage space was used on our boat, AND, every other cruising boat we met along the way. If you are day sailing or just a week end sailor or going marina to marina, I could see how it would work, but no so for long distance.

Just my views

Greg
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Not sure what you are talking about??? :confused: Our Nor'Sea 27 is a small boat but does NOT have positive flotation. And where do you store all of the other items that are REQUIRED to live? When heading out cruising, every storage space was used on our boat, AND, every other cruising boat we met along the way. If you are day sailing or just a week end sailor or going marina to marina, I could see how it would work, but no so for long distance. Just my views Greg
all outboard powered boats under 20 feet must float level for 24 hours when totally swamped. If you need so much stuff you could tow a barge filled with your stuff. Better to lose your stuff than your boat and your life. I saw a boat once that added a second floor. What a mess that was.
 
Jan 22, 2008
551
NorSea 27 Az., Doing the To-Do list
all outboard powered boats under 20 feet must float level for 24 hours when totally swamped. If you need so much stuff you could tow a barge filled with your stuff. Better to lose your stuff than your boat and your life. I saw a boat once that added a second floor. What a mess that was.
I think you are talking apples & oranges. I understand the boats under 20 foot rule. BUT, you were talking "crossing the Atlantic".

I know it CAN be done in a 19.99 foot boat, but the admiral and I enjoy our comforts when living aboard and cruising full time. ;) NOT something we would consider for more than a weekend.

As I said in my post, positive foam flotation was offered for a number of years (for larger boats), but never caught on. I saw it advertised in many mags, but never actually saw it on a boat myself.

It's my feeling that in today's world, a raft & GPEPRB (or 2) is more than enough to be safe. I know of only a very few crossings, one or two, that would put a crew far enough "out there" that are beyond the capabilities of a rescue, IF REQUIRED. And at the distance we are talking, the faster drift of a raft might just put you at a better chance of sighting another vessel? Just a guess on my part there.

I have been in two swamped boats. I can say that even IF you had positive flotation (as the boats I was in did) it's NO FUN at all! And there was NO sailing them or directing them in any meaningful direction. I was lucky that both swamps took place in very protected water with other boats standing by. :D

Greg
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
I am merely suggesting an alternative to a life raft is to keep your boat afloat instead and there are several ways to do this a few of which I pointed out. I agree the smaller your boat the less space available to store the items you consider necessary. What if you Velcro attached closed cell foam mats say 2 inches thick to your bulkheads, interior hull surfaces, under your cushions, on your headliner, etc. Perhaps enough volume would be provided for positive flotation. Even with a life raft if your boat was still floating it would be a larger target to acquire by rescue functions. You probably wouldn't untether a life raft until the boat actually sank.
 
Aug 31, 2013
62
Hunter 26 Saylorville-Des Moines
Maybe velcro, but just keep in mind the buoyant force is the weight of water displaced - so at about 64 lb/ft3, the foam or flotation needs to be secured for that weight (for example, maybe in storage under V berth or aft where it can't get out). Otherwise, it will end up floating to the cabin roof and maybe out of the cabin to open sea. Let's all hope never to be in that position, but I do have a friend who lost a cruiser in the Chesapeake Bay in about 1997.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Absolutely the most important thing in my arsenal of knowledge was what I'd learned by reading "Once is Enough", by Miles Smeeton.
Just finished reading Smeeton's book through the second capsize. True--they bailed the boat out both times using buckets [over a few days] b/c the pump(s) were repeatedly getting fouled by stuff in the water. He mentioned in particular the wet pulp of the paper from their books and from other paper goods. The doghouse was gone, but the cavity it left was successfully patched. Engine was partially submerged, so no chance there of using it to pump out water, etc. However, the buckets worked b/c there was no hole in the boat below the waterline, so no new water coming in. I see that there remain two distinct scenarios-- a sudden filling of the boat from a roll or somersault, but no damage through the hull; versus, a hole or leak somewhere with water entering rapidly. If the latter is detected early enough, I still propose that a battery of pumps with 4000+ GPH total capacity could keep the boat afloat long enough to find and plug the hole!
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,808
Ericson 29 Southport..
all outboard powered boats under 20 feet must float level for 24 hours when totally swamped. If you need so much stuff you could tow a barge filled with your stuff. Better to lose your stuff than your boat and your life. I saw a boat once that added a second floor. What a mess that was.
Jibes, are you by any chance talking about the 'Pilot II', an old wooden boat about 70' twin screw? Looks like he built a mother-in-law house behind the fly bridge deck?
He came out of Sneads Ferry last year, and the boat originally from N.Y.?

What a train wreck..
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Most already have a huge amount more pumping power than they realize.

Manual ships pump. Moves a load of water if worked fast and steady. Usually connected to large diameter output 1.5" or more and designed for rapid dewatering.

Elec bilge pump. 300 - 1000's gph.

Shower sump pump. Mine is a rule 2000 gph in the shower sump box just above the bilge sump behind the keel. It does double duty as a shower pump and as a high cap emergency pump. If water overwhelms the bilge sump pump it will fill the shower sump and trigger that pump. I've also put an alarm on the shower pump.

Engine intake. About 200-300 gph. Rem the clamps and drop the intake hose into the bilge if full of water. Running the engine also keeps the batts happy for the elec pumps.

Domestic water pump. About 200 gph. Cut the intake hose at the tank and drop it into the bilge. Turn on the faucets.

Head. Cut the flush intake, open the direct ob and put crew in there pumping. If output only goes to holding then macerate overboard.

Portable pump. All boats have one probably. Put crew on it and pump into the cockpit or out a portlight.

2 of these remedies require additional crew but if singlehanded you still have 5 pumps going. 4 if you're using yourself to fix the leak.
 
Sep 2, 2009
339
Hunter Vision-32 New Hamburg, NY
inflatable kevlar bags?

http://www.subsalve.com/itc_max.htm

just tossing this out for discussion ... I'm wondering about these large kevlar bags. Inflate and fill the v-berth. Inflate and fill the head. Inflate and fill the aft-berth. Would this provide enough flotation / water displacement to keep the boat afloat? Anyone guess the cost of such a system if it is even a feasible one?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Trying to make a boat that does not have positive buoyancy into one that does is foolish.

Positive buoyancy does NOT turn the sinking boat into a liferaft, or 'save' the boat. It gives you more time to get off and into your raft. In most conditions where you are likely to sink, the raft is 100 times better than a swamped boat.

If you want to be as safe as possible offshore, bring a life raft. If you are sinking and want to stay with the boat and not get into the life-raft, inflate the raft in the salon. I promise you don't like it.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
http://www.subsalve.com/itc_max.htm

just tossing this out for discussion ... I'm wondering about these large kevlar bags. Inflate and fill the v-berth. Inflate and fill the head. Inflate and fill the aft-berth. Would this provide enough flotation / water displacement to keep the boat afloat? Anyone guess the cost of such a system if it is even a feasible one?
I doubt that would work. Just a few thumbnail calculations here. A boat of, say, 16 GRT (Gross Registered Tonnes) has a total inside volume of about 45 cubic meters, equivalent to about 11,900 gallons of volume; so that would be the amount of water to fill it. A gallon of seawater weighs about 8.5 lbs; thus, only 25% of the volume of the boat could load on 3,000 gallons x 8.5 lb/gallon = 25,000 lbs of seawater. The boat would likely sink long before the inflated lifts could substantially restrict the flooded volume, if ever they could at all. In a sailboat 25% full of water, the water would probably be up to my knees if it were my boat. Notwithstanding All is Lost [where Redford was wading through waist-deep water] I'd be impressed (if not amazed) if it floated long at 25% flooded.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,069
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Just finished reading Smeeton's book through the second capsize. True--they bailed the boat out both times using buckets [over a few days] b/c the pump(s) were repeatedly getting fouled by stuff in the water. He mentioned in particular the wet pulp of the paper from their books and from other paper goods. The doghouse was gone, but the cavity it left was successfully patched.
Did any of the Smeeten readers get who their young assistant was? He did a lot of the carpentry after the dog house was carried away.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Did any of the Smeeten readers get who their young assistant was? He did a lot of the carpentry after the dog house was carried away.
John Guzzwell, a Canadian from British Columbia, famous for having a solo circumnavigation at age 29 in a wooden boat that he built named Trekka. Is there more?
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,002
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Most already have a huge amount more pumping power than they realize.

Manual ships pump. Moves a load of water if worked fast and steady. Usually connected to large diameter output 1.5" or more and designed for rapid dewatering.

Elec bilge pump. 300 - 1000's gph.

Shower sump pump. Mine is a rule 2000 gph in the shower sump box just above the bilge sump behind the keel. It does double duty as a shower pump and as a high cap emergency pump. If water overwhelms the bilge sump pump it will fill the shower sump and trigger that pump. I've also put an alarm on the shower pump.

Engine intake. About 200-300 gph. Rem the clamps and drop the intake hose into the bilge if full of water. Running the engine also keeps the batts happy for the elec pumps.

Domestic water pump. About 200 gph. Cut the intake hose at the tank and drop it into the bilge. Turn on the faucets.

Head. Cut the flush intake, open the direct ob and put crew in there pumping. If output only goes to holding then macerate overboard.

Portable pump. All boats have one probably. Put crew on it and pump into the cockpit or out a portlight.

2 of these remedies require additional crew but if singlehanded you still have 5 pumps going. 4 if you're using yourself to fix the leak.
That's an impressive list!!! I doubt I would have thought about putting the freshwater pump into service in that way. Obviously, one has to keep the engine running as long as possible there for the electrics.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,069
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
John Guzzwell, a Canadian from British Columbia, famous for having a solo circumnavigation at age 29 in a wooden boat that he built named Trekka. Is there more?
No, I was just surprised to see his name in that tale.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
All Navy ships have damage control parties trained to contain damage to the ship and all personnel participate in the drills at some point. On small boats damage control is a first priority thus we have soft wood plugs for the through hulls. Start the bilge pumps and stop the leaks.
 
May 7, 2012
1,354
Hunter e33 Maple Bay, BC
Reacting fast to stop or slow down a flood using what every is at hand is critical. A 2" hole, 1 foot below the waterline allows 78 gallons per minute to flow in. Using all the pumps that Skipper lists above at optimum outputs, will not keep up with that inflow. Jam a wooden plug, rag, pillow, whatever into the hole/crack will slow the inflow considerably. If the pumps listed above can keep up with the water ingress then your flood is now a leak. Prevention and preparation is key.