Plan to Save or to Abandon the Ship?

[capta]

Wow. Could you share how you managed that?

I've only done it in 50, and that was huge ordeal. I simply can't image it in 8 times the wind pressure.

Even bare poles, with the boat at 40 degrees into that breeze I figure you would get turned down then knocked down flat.

I can't say we were actually making headway, navigation in those days was celestial, but the fact is, we did not get driven onto the reef, so I guess the strategy worked. But after the third capsize we cut the sheets on the jib and dowsed what tiny bit we had up of the mizzen, because I believed they were doing more harm than good.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Kings,

It really doesn't matter what safeguards you have in place pal. You need to remember that Mother Nature will hit you with unplanned conditions at any time.

So, what's a thoughtful owner to do?

You can only prepare for the worst, not knowing what that will be. You can make your boat a safe as possible, add all the backups for safety & then guess what? Mother Nature will hit you with a blindside punch. The best sailors in the world have succumbed to her fury. We are only human thus, restrained in our abilities. Add to this, the boat's limitations & sometimes it's just a crap-shoot. Some survive, some do not.

On the Brightside, you may fare as the winner.

In closing, if you do all to prepare for emergencies you, your boat & your passengers will stand a better chance.

REMEMBER, IT'S FEAR THAT MAKES A TRUE HERO.

CR

 

[justsomeguy]

snip-

REMEMBER, IT'S FEAR THAT MAKES A TRUE HERO.

CR

Wait, what?

Did you learn that drivin' the Saratoga?

 

[Gunni]

Ron, I've been waiting for you to show up and tell us:

Well if anything's going to happen it's going to happen out there.

 

[Jackdaw]

I can't say we were actually making headway, navigation in those days was celestial, but the fact is, we did not get driven onto the reef, so I guess the strategy worked. But after the third capsize we cut the sheets on the jib and dowsed what tiny bit we had up of the mizzen, because I believed they were doing more harm than good.

I'm just having a hard time imagining ANY boat making headway in 100 knots of breeze, let alone a sailboat with sails up. The wind pressure against the hull and mast would overpower any propulsion you could manage.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Oh man,

Just & Gunny just hit me sideways.............OUCH!

It's posts like this, that keeps me coming back.

Thanks dudes, you guys are great!

Remember, watch the movie Captain Ron, I live & breath it.

CR

 

[justsomeguy]

Mind if I use that quote of yours in the war room?

 

[shemandr]

So Capta has had the experience I dread. Survival conditions with no immediate prospect of rescue. Please tell us your opinion of whether or not crew in such conditions could deploy, get in and stay in a life raft.
I think the takeout lesson from the Fastnet debacle was that more sailors died from trying to abandon their vessels than died staying with their incapacitated vessels. I'm not advocating not having a life raft. I just think their use would be more for leaving a sinking boat from collision or mechanical failure rather then a storm. Once it gets rough enough that you want off, you probably can't get off. That's a set of bad options.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Shemandr,

I've read up on the FastNet tragedy. Hence my thoughts in my earlier post. Those sailors should never have died but, some did while pursuing their passions.

We ALL sail in a liquid medium, add to this wind & seas & everything else changes.
So, what was the correct answer? Survival suits, staying with the vessel, clinging to the life raft? It's only conjecture at this point, as many perished. So then tell me, what science do we use?

Did they have safety measures in-hand, yes, did that help the ones that perished, NO I think not.

Maybe it's just a question of who is infallible & who is not, what nature throws at us is the result of who lives or who dies. Life is nothing more than random chaos pal, some live & others perish. Add to this Mother Nature's fury, how does one write the correct formula for this?

CR

 

[capta]

So Capta has had the experience I dread. Survival conditions with no immediate prospect of rescue. Please tell us your opinion of whether or not crew in such conditions could deploy, get in and stay in a life raft.

I have always thought we would have perished in a small craft life raft, for sure. In those conditions, I imagined the raft becoming a nurf ball, being tossed from giant wave to the next by the wind, only to fall (50 feet?) back down the wave face when a wave sheltered the raft from the wind.
Again, as for movement, I have no idea, but with more than a hundred miles of reef down wind, we did not get blown onto it in the 3 days or so we were not under command. Even if what we did only slowed our leeward drift a tenth of a knot, perhaps that was just enough?. Note; several times I did attempt to hail a cab, but apparently there were none available.

 

[thinwater]

I was told by an old sailing buddy of mine that the most efficient de-watering device is a scared man with a 5-gallon bucket. He claimed to speak from experience.

Probably something smaller than 5 gallons, but...

I think Rich has an excellent point that deserves more discussion. A later poster mentioned a bucket brigade, and that is where the planning can fall apart; there are no people for said brigade, and in rough condition it will fail.

1. The crew is going to be spread thin. Several on deck, several trying to fix the hole and maybe one person to bail. Perhaps the crew (typical cruisers) is 1-3 people. No brigade.
2. You will need a bunch of buckets.
3. Trying carrying full buckets up the ladder in a seaway. Nearly impossible and certainly slow.
4. If the companion way is open, water may come in faster than it's leaving.

On my boat, other than pumps, the fastest way is to pour the water into sinks. Unless the boat is far down, they should be above water. There are probably at least 2. There is no danger to crew (falling down the stairs) and the hatch can be shut. The drains should be large and clear.

Also consider draining the water tanks and holding tank ASAP. When empty, if low, they are flotation and they represent real weight when full.

I agree a bucket is fast and dependable, but dumping the bucket must be dead easy or the crew is going to tire very fast.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I doubt that bailing by bucket would be very effective in a crisis situation on my boat, or one like it. Perhaps after things got stabilized (e.g., water ingress halted) and the pumps were working, etc., we might start bailing to speed things up some. I suppose doing so would be a "gut reaction." But where are the buckets? Mine are in the starboard locker that opens from the cockpit, usually with stuff in 'em. Maybe I should stock the boat with 2 or 3 of those very basic, 3-gallon canvass buckets. Can stow 'em out of the way, down below, where someone could get to them fast. Most crew could hoist 20 lb (2.5 gal) of water to a sink probably faster than the sink drains; so built-in rest stops there? Still, I'd put my money on the pumps; especially one driven off the engine.

 

[Doc_holiday]

dewatering is huge, plugging the hole if possible is bigger. If it stops the flow and you haven't sunk, you can take your time getting rid of the water.

A few wood, rubber and cork plugs should be on board. Now a 2' hole is another story. Keep your boat heeled if possible under sail with the hole on the high side. If you can plug it from outside its best. A crack is harder to deal with.

 

[thinwater]

dewatering is huge, plugging the hole if possible is bigger. If it stops the flow and you haven't sunk, you can take your time getting rid of the water.

A few wood, rubber and cork plugs should be on board. Now a 2' hole is another story. Keep your boat heeled if possible under sail with the hole on the high side. If you can plug it from outside its best. A crack is harder to deal with.

And then there is the whole topic of crash tanks, bulkheads, and designs that reduce the likely hod of some failures. Bow and rudder leaks can be managed with bulkeads in the right places. With grounding damage you should be able to get to shore, and some boats are simply strong enough to withstand grounding very impressively. Lose a keel, hit something mid-ships, or bash your own mast after a roll-over; ouch.

----

Fire would be a whole nuther thread. Had an incipient electrical fire offshore once (PO added a brand circut by stuffing a bare wire into a spade fitting, under a carpet liner--I said bad words about that), and let me tell you, the crew moved fast. I went over ever part of the wiring after that, in great detail. Found several other PO creativities. I feel better about it now.

 

[topcat0399]

Shemandr,

........how does one write the correct formula for this?

CR

For us for now we do it statistically. In life we have a much better chance of being obliterated by a teen text-er. In the future, after we have perhaps experienced such a big water event, we might write the formula for ourselves with a little more emotion.

Great post captron

 

[Doc_holiday]

Just my opinion. A life raft serves a couple purposes.

If the boat sinks, you have a new one that floats

If you are sinking or in danger, it's a big visual for rescue boats, even if it's tethered and you remain in the boat.

It offers some sense of preparedness and implication that safety is important and that you have a means of saving lives to your crew.


If your boat isn't sinking, I would not suggest getting out and into the life raft just yet, you may consider deploying it for a visual aid and if things get bad quick and you need it in short order.


As for grounding, I think more often than not, you are close enough to swim to shore. Not always but odds are you are near land. Take the life raft if it's a deserted island for food, shelter and visual marker. Be sure to bring a volley ball, you may need a friend.

Being somewhat sarcastic, but people do die in the ocean, I venture to say it's better to die doing something you love than spending the last 16 months of your life in a bed with a bunch of tubes sticking out of you and listening to that damn alarm every time one of the sensors says your O2 sensor slipped off your finger or IV bag is low on solution. (Funny they pump salt water into you)

Nothing wrong with being prepared tho.

Make sure you pack clean underwear. If my mom thought I was being life-flighted to a hospital and found out I wasn't wearing clean underwear, she'd kill me anyway. I'll take my chances with hypothermia, shark bites, and box jellyfish over moms wrath.

 

[justsomeguy]

Being a "defensive pessimist" isn't such a bad thing.

http://academics.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Norem/Quiz/quiz.html

 

[Anonymous 121765]

You know guys,

The only thing legitimate, that I took away from this thread is, that there are as many colors in life, as their are differences of thought in this thread. I for one, would more likely to heed the advice of a real survivor here, namely Capta.

Remember opinions are like ass holes. Every has one & we all still wipe differently. Some speak from which they have never endured, so hence, I take alot with a grain of salt & from those that had been there rather than, those that speak subjectively. Opinions will always differ & this can be a good thing.

What is right or what is wrong, depends on the state you find yourself in. What works for one does not have to work for others, hence, different colors. It was the conditions Capta found himself in that begat his response & he survived & that was achieved without a life raft.

The same applies to differing emergencies and/or possibility of dying. Different situations will demand different modes of survival tactics.

Pay heed to what Capta had to go thru. In his situation, a lift raft proved NOT to be the answer. A survival raft may have made a difference but that to, maybe knot!

The important thing to remember is, that his/their decisions was what saved their lives.

Again, all emergencies require different approaches. You guess right you win, you guess wrong &.........

The decisions you make can be the ONLY difference between living & dying. Remember the part I mentioned about different colors?

CR

 

[Kings Gambit]

I've learned a lot from this thread about how to prepare for potential flooding. Perhaps, or perhaps not, all approaches would be practical or effective in a given situation. 1) Install at least one, possibly two, additional high capacity bilge pumps in the Bavaria. A de-watering strategy should involve electric, engine-driven, as well as manual, methods. As to manual, need the combination of a manual bilge pump plus buckets. De-watering through the sinks requires on the Bavaria that the sink drainage rate be much faster than it is now. I can do that. Need to carry "hole plugging" capability beyond the wooden plugs everyone must carry for insurance. In particular, a putty/sealant that can set-up rapidly under water. Probably two to three sticks of that stuff. A water-proof tarp that can be wrapped against the hull outside, plus assorted pieces of wood, foam, and/or rubber. Not mentioned are also SOLAS parachute flares and other high-end distress-signalling equipment that should be aboard. A DSC VHF tied to the GPS so a distress call is self identifying, etc. I can likely get all of that stuff for less than the price of a pre-owned life raft that somebody never had to use, and is now selling!!

 

[jibes138]

I've learned a lot from this thread about how to prepare for potential flooding. Perhaps, or perhaps not, all approaches would be practical or effective in a given situation. 1) Install at least one, possibly two, additional high capacity bilge pumps in the Bavaria. A de-watering strategy should involve electric, engine-driven, as well as manual, methods. As to manual, need the combination of a manual bilge pump plus buckets. De-watering through the sinks requires on the Bavaria that the sink drainage rate be much faster than it is now. I can do that. Need to carry "hole plugging" capability beyond the wooden plugs everyone must carry for insurance. In particular, a putty/sealant that can set-up rapidly under water. Probably two to three sticks of that stuff. A water-proof tarp that can be wrapped against the hull outside, plus assorted pieces of wood, foam, and/or rubber. Not mentioned are also SOLAS parachute flares and other high-end distress-signalling equipment that should be aboard. A DSC VHF tied to the GPS so a distress call is self identifying, etc. I can likely get all of that stuff for less than the price of a pre-owned life raft that somebody never had to use, and is now selling!!

. Why not put the life raft inside the boat and inflate it? To float your boat you need to displace an amount of water equal to its weight? Seems like inflatable flotation bags would be a better option for survival.