Since everybody has an opinion, I'm tossing it out there. There are 2 local boats I drool on, both have been for sale over a year, both are 40'ers, both very well kept,and that's where the similarities end. 1 is a blue water 22 yo cutter/ketch that is just beautiful on the outside. The stuff to make you dream of palm trees and Popeye should be at the helm. But rather rustic down below. The other a 8 yo production boat that looks like any other boat in a slip, but once you go below, MY GOD is this nice. Since selling a big boat can take till after you die, which one would you buy to maybe live aboard and cruise the Carribian. Don't be too serious, I'm fantasizing here
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Easy answer .....
The one thats going to cost you less per year to operate, maintain, upgrade, etc.; as, that one will get you sailing into your dream faster than one that going to take a lot of work/money. Its the same concept as 'compound interest'. I dont care if that 22 y.o. boat was kissed and put to bed every night, a 22 y.o. boat is going to need a LOT of upgrade/refit and maintenance. ;-)
The one thats going to cost you less per year to operate, maintain, upgrade, etc.; as, that one will get you sailing into your dream faster than one that going to take a lot of work/money. Its the same concept as 'compound interest'. I dont care if that 22 y.o. boat was kissed and put to bed every night, a 22 y.o. boat is going to need a LOT of upgrade/refit and maintenance. ;-)
I second Rich....romantic to have that 22yo boat..
you have to dump money, time, and elbow grease to maintain it. There are a few beautiful wooden boats were I live. I love to own one...but the time to maintain one, I don't have. abe
you have to dump money, time, and elbow grease to maintain it. There are a few beautiful wooden boats were I live. I love to own one...but the time to maintain one, I don't have. abe
since we are fantaszing here
Assuming the ketch is not wood, that they are both in same condition (therefore the necessary maintenance was done on the 22yo) the Ketch would be my choice. It still give's you a boat from 1980's best years for boat building, stronger hull etc. If I was to go liveaboard and cruise I'll take sturdy over flashy in no time. The 8yo production boat with all the plastic down below and marginal quality would make me walk away. If I wanted to live aboard and cruise on such a boat I would likely have to beef up all systems anyway. Now back to reality: 40ft is too big to be cost effective (mind you I sometime dream of 70ft beauties but...) and you loose so much livable space with a ketch that I would take neither ones. Thx for the fantasy moment! a.
Assuming the ketch is not wood, that they are both in same condition (therefore the necessary maintenance was done on the 22yo) the Ketch would be my choice. It still give's you a boat from 1980's best years for boat building, stronger hull etc. If I was to go liveaboard and cruise I'll take sturdy over flashy in no time. The 8yo production boat with all the plastic down below and marginal quality would make me walk away. If I wanted to live aboard and cruise on such a boat I would likely have to beef up all systems anyway. Now back to reality: 40ft is too big to be cost effective (mind you I sometime dream of 70ft beauties but...) and you loose so much livable space with a ketch that I would take neither ones. Thx for the fantasy moment! a.
Alain Pascal.........
You said.."and you loose so much livable space with a ketch ". I dont see how the live-aboard space is affected by the a ketch rig. This is all external to the hull. I have a 39Ft. Allied ketch and my main mast is essentially in the 'same' place that my compression post was in my Catalina 30. My Mizzen mast is supported below the cockpit in a 'more or less' out of the way place behind the engine.I could see, however, how livable space can be affected by age. Generally speaking, the more modern boats are much beamier than the older ones which makes the modern boats much bigger inside. As for handling with only 2 people, the ketch rig is much easier. There are more options with you canvas than with a sloop. In rough weather, I dont reef the main, I drop it. Then sail with the jib (roller furling) and a small mizzen. Less work with smaller sails might keep me sailing a few years longer. Regards: Tony B
You said.."and you loose so much livable space with a ketch ". I dont see how the live-aboard space is affected by the a ketch rig. This is all external to the hull. I have a 39Ft. Allied ketch and my main mast is essentially in the 'same' place that my compression post was in my Catalina 30. My Mizzen mast is supported below the cockpit in a 'more or less' out of the way place behind the engine.I could see, however, how livable space can be affected by age. Generally speaking, the more modern boats are much beamier than the older ones which makes the modern boats much bigger inside. As for handling with only 2 people, the ketch rig is much easier. There are more options with you canvas than with a sloop. In rough weather, I dont reef the main, I drop it. Then sail with the jib (roller furling) and a small mizzen. Less work with smaller sails might keep me sailing a few years longer. Regards: Tony B
How is 40 feet too big? I single-hand our ODay 40 on a regular basis. The hardest part is backing into the slip with the wind blowing off it, so I put her in nose-first until things calm down. Lines led to the cockpit, roller furling jib, easy to reef single line reefing on the main and auto pilot, and it works. Maintenance costs are more than on the 28 footer, but, for us, the advantages are many. I was apprehensive the first time I took our 28 footer out after spending several years with a 22, but a boat is a boat. I have picked up moorings with the 40 alone as well. Liveabilty is better than camping, passage times are less, the diesel keeps consumption and fuel costs to where they are affordable. the start-up costs were significant, but things are settling down. Too bad you're just dreaming. See if you can't actually SAIL one of them, and then check out the Admiral's opinion. Short of a separation, she don't like, we don't go. Fortunately, she loves this one, and I love to sail her. Have fun. A 40 was just a dream 20 years ago for me, now it is real. One more week, then haul-out. Bummer! Patty and Bill
Hi Bill, Hi Tony
Well, at least I am happy my comment generated replies in this tread! Tony, you are correct my thoughts were more on the 22yo Ketch then actually on the sail plan, older boats are often narrower and with long overhangs to strech the water line all this makes for beautiful lines on the water but less space. That said I am found of the Ketch or yawl sail plan very well balanced, easy to handle in a blow, and beautiful. My personal favorite would be Penduick formerly owned by Eric Tabarly, not a Ketch but an "old Gentleman". Bill, my comment reqarding 40 ft+ is simply an opinion I have sailed/delivered yacht up to 68ft (a beautiful Swann), I owned and lived on a 45ft for 5 years, now I have moved to a 25 O'day (mainly because I want to be able to trailer the boat)I think if I was to go cruising I would get around 32~38ft mainly for ease of handling and cost. Cost of sails, load & equipment required to handle them on larger yatch, availability of parts and yards to accomodate/repair a larger yacht in remote cruising areas, etc. That said you are right a larger yacht will do slightly faster passages and will handle a blow differently then a smaller vessel. Creature comforth, well I never saw the utility in having 2 heads and 4 cabins on a boat that I am sailing alone or with my better haft so... It is all relative and the important point is to sail the boat that you like. I still sail and race on 40+ boat it is great but right now I like the freedom and simplicity of the little Oday. Cheers, a.
Well, at least I am happy my comment generated replies in this tread! Tony, you are correct my thoughts were more on the 22yo Ketch then actually on the sail plan, older boats are often narrower and with long overhangs to strech the water line all this makes for beautiful lines on the water but less space. That said I am found of the Ketch or yawl sail plan very well balanced, easy to handle in a blow, and beautiful. My personal favorite would be Penduick formerly owned by Eric Tabarly, not a Ketch but an "old Gentleman". Bill, my comment reqarding 40 ft+ is simply an opinion I have sailed/delivered yacht up to 68ft (a beautiful Swann), I owned and lived on a 45ft for 5 years, now I have moved to a 25 O'day (mainly because I want to be able to trailer the boat)I think if I was to go cruising I would get around 32~38ft mainly for ease of handling and cost. Cost of sails, load & equipment required to handle them on larger yatch, availability of parts and yards to accomodate/repair a larger yacht in remote cruising areas, etc. That said you are right a larger yacht will do slightly faster passages and will handle a blow differently then a smaller vessel. Creature comforth, well I never saw the utility in having 2 heads and 4 cabins on a boat that I am sailing alone or with my better haft so... It is all relative and the important point is to sail the boat that you like. I still sail and race on 40+ boat it is great but right now I like the freedom and simplicity of the little Oday. Cheers, a.
Alain Pascal !!! My most sailed......
My most 'sailed' boat was a 25' MacGregor. More peoiple should look around and see that the most 'docked' boats are the larger ones. Right now we have a 39 Ft Allied Ketch which we will do some cruising in. Probably in about 7 to 10 years from now I will buy a 26 Mac and do the trailer sailer thing, and be done with bigger boats. Im glad you love your Oday. The smaller the boat , the more it gets used. When I get my Mac, i'll have to get up north of the border and challenge you to a race. And who said you cant cruise in a 25 Footer? We did quite bit of coastal cruising in weather "that was too rough for a small boat" when the larger boats were safely tied up at the dock. A sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat.
My most 'sailed' boat was a 25' MacGregor. More peoiple should look around and see that the most 'docked' boats are the larger ones. Right now we have a 39 Ft Allied Ketch which we will do some cruising in. Probably in about 7 to 10 years from now I will buy a 26 Mac and do the trailer sailer thing, and be done with bigger boats. Im glad you love your Oday. The smaller the boat , the more it gets used. When I get my Mac, i'll have to get up north of the border and challenge you to a race. And who said you cant cruise in a 25 Footer? We did quite bit of coastal cruising in weather "that was too rough for a small boat" when the larger boats were safely tied up at the dock. A sailboat is a sailboat is a sailboat.
May I say
Couldn't help but add my 2 cents here. Tony kind of answered the beam and size of a ketch thing. I want to comment on the costs of older vs newer. That an older boat is automatically going to cost more to upgrade, repair or whatever is a bunch of hogwash. We just bought a 1981 Seidelman 37. That makes it 25 years old by my math. Before the decision was made to purchase this boat, we looked at a lot of boats. The care and maintenance of the previous owner has much more to do with the cost of any boat. Tony B bought a 39 Allied Mistress, which is a 1976 model if I am correct. If not sorry Tony. I will tell you straight up, that Tony's boat, and the Seidelman, are far ahead of a lot of junk I looked at. I looked at some high dollar, very neglected boats, that would have cost twice as much to even get ready to sail than this one, or Tony's. The previous owner of Tony's boat was more than likely anal retentive, but he had a receipt for every cent ever spent on that boat. Hand written instructions for every system, valve and widget aboard. We purchased this boat in New Jersey, spent a week going over all the systems and adding some electronics, and are currently on the way to New Orleans with it. Older does not mean costlier. Older does usually mean more robust construction, less glamour on the inside, and in most cases a narrower beam and a little less room in the same length boat.
Couldn't help but add my 2 cents here. Tony kind of answered the beam and size of a ketch thing. I want to comment on the costs of older vs newer. That an older boat is automatically going to cost more to upgrade, repair or whatever is a bunch of hogwash. We just bought a 1981 Seidelman 37. That makes it 25 years old by my math. Before the decision was made to purchase this boat, we looked at a lot of boats. The care and maintenance of the previous owner has much more to do with the cost of any boat. Tony B bought a 39 Allied Mistress, which is a 1976 model if I am correct. If not sorry Tony. I will tell you straight up, that Tony's boat, and the Seidelman, are far ahead of a lot of junk I looked at. I looked at some high dollar, very neglected boats, that would have cost twice as much to even get ready to sail than this one, or Tony's. The previous owner of Tony's boat was more than likely anal retentive, but he had a receipt for every cent ever spent on that boat. Hand written instructions for every system, valve and widget aboard. We purchased this boat in New Jersey, spent a week going over all the systems and adding some electronics, and are currently on the way to New Orleans with it. Older does not mean costlier. Older does usually mean more robust construction, less glamour on the inside, and in most cases a narrower beam and a little less room in the same length boat.
Phillip.....you are quite emotional, LOL
Whew, did you do that all in one breath? Remind me to never get your feathers ruffled.LOL Anyway, howse it goin? I trust all is well. Still looking forward to seeing you guys soon. Stay warm. Tony B
Whew, did you do that all in one breath? Remind me to never get your feathers ruffled.LOL Anyway, howse it goin? I trust all is well. Still looking forward to seeing you guys soon. Stay warm. Tony B
Thanks
Thanks for the insight. At least now I know that they both have good points and I'm not schizophrenic.
It seemed odd to be drawn to 2 so very different boats. The Admiral is liking them both but tends to like the character of the ketch. The main trouble with the Bayfield is quartering guests where the Catalina seems to be made for it. No doubt it's smaller inside and we do have family that will be around. I guess it boils down to living in and showing your friends luxury accomodations vs sitting at the helm and feeling like the world is yours. Or, Get what YOU want. We went to an open house at Tidewater today and she said "all these look the same" as we instinctively were walking straight past the new stuff toward an old blue hulled something with butterfly hatches. hmmm.
Thanks for the insight. At least now I know that they both have good points and I'm not schizophrenic.
It seemed odd to be drawn to 2 so very different boats. The Admiral is liking them both but tends to like the character of the ketch. The main trouble with the Bayfield is quartering guests where the Catalina seems to be made for it. No doubt it's smaller inside and we do have family that will be around. I guess it boils down to living in and showing your friends luxury accomodations vs sitting at the helm and feeling like the world is yours. Or, Get what YOU want. We went to an open house at Tidewater today and she said "all these look the same" as we instinctively were walking straight past the new stuff toward an old blue hulled something with butterfly hatches. hmmm.
Doug...Not so odd
In your statement "It seemed odd to be drawn to 2 so very different boats.". Its not so odd. I have had that problem everytime I wanted to get another boat. When picking out a boat, you know in the back of your mind that the decision is a permanent one, at least for a long time anyway. Given a specific amount of money in a budget, your decision usually boils down to size vs. looks vs. age vs. condition. Its not an easy decision, but somehow, when the decision is finally made, its usually the right one. Its always nice to fantacize. And when you do fantacize often enough, it usually turns out to be a reality some day. Good luck, and GO SAILING on whatever !!!!
In your statement "It seemed odd to be drawn to 2 so very different boats.". Its not so odd. I have had that problem everytime I wanted to get another boat. When picking out a boat, you know in the back of your mind that the decision is a permanent one, at least for a long time anyway. Given a specific amount of money in a budget, your decision usually boils down to size vs. looks vs. age vs. condition. Its not an easy decision, but somehow, when the decision is finally made, its usually the right one. Its always nice to fantacize. And when you do fantacize often enough, it usually turns out to be a reality some day. Good luck, and GO SAILING on whatever !!!!
Tom
When you raft up, who's boat does everyone tend to spend happy hour on? I didn't know about the one in Middle river, there's 2 in Harrington Harbor. They're so beefy I question if it needs a hurricane to get it moving, but you'd feel safe! Might be a pain just buzzing around the bay.
When you raft up, who's boat does everyone tend to spend happy hour on? I didn't know about the one in Middle river, there's 2 in Harrington Harbor. They're so beefy I question if it needs a hurricane to get it moving, but you'd feel safe! Might be a pain just buzzing around the bay.
Back in the fray!
As far as bigger boats staying at the pier, we have put almost 1,000 nm under the keel of Kukulcán this year, with the majority local day sailing. In MY opinion, bigger boats aren't harder to sail, but they can sure be more difficult to dock while single handed. The 40 is a 1989, has ONE head, we use the vee berth for livng and the aft stateroom for storage, it has a few of the bells and whistles we wanted, has decent performance under sail and power, and was a grunch less moola than the newer boats we looked at. We are past cruising with small children, so not a factor, and we can entertain a fair amount of people without cramping things. Everything in life is choices. The advice over making sure that the Admiral is happy still applies. Friday is haulout day, but Sunday was the last sail with the Admiral. One of us has to work, but not for long. We took out some power boating friends who had never sailed, the weather was perfect with only the occasional blow up to around 15mph, and I couldn't get Steve off the wheel. Is he gonna be a convert? Nope, but he had fun and so did we. See you on the water or the shows. Patty and Bill, O40, New London, CT
As far as bigger boats staying at the pier, we have put almost 1,000 nm under the keel of Kukulcán this year, with the majority local day sailing. In MY opinion, bigger boats aren't harder to sail, but they can sure be more difficult to dock while single handed. The 40 is a 1989, has ONE head, we use the vee berth for livng and the aft stateroom for storage, it has a few of the bells and whistles we wanted, has decent performance under sail and power, and was a grunch less moola than the newer boats we looked at. We are past cruising with small children, so not a factor, and we can entertain a fair amount of people without cramping things. Everything in life is choices. The advice over making sure that the Admiral is happy still applies. Friday is haulout day, but Sunday was the last sail with the Admiral. One of us has to work, but not for long. We took out some power boating friends who had never sailed, the weather was perfect with only the occasional blow up to around 15mph, and I couldn't get Steve off the wheel. Is he gonna be a convert? Nope, but he had fun and so did we. See you on the water or the shows. Patty and Bill, O40, New London, CT
Insuring old boats
With boat insurance going up and becoming more restrictive, has anyone who has recently bought or is buying an older boat having any problems getting insurance for it?
With boat insurance going up and becoming more restrictive, has anyone who has recently bought or is buying an older boat having any problems getting insurance for it?
YES........
I recently bought a 1976 Allied. I'm not sure if my insurance problems were more Gulf of Mexico ( Tx., La, and Ms. ) related due to recent rash of hurricanes or age related. Was a total nightmare getting Ins.
I recently bought a 1976 Allied. I'm not sure if my insurance problems were more Gulf of Mexico ( Tx., La, and Ms. ) related due to recent rash of hurricanes or age related. Was a total nightmare getting Ins.
Nice discovery
In looking at how much this is going to cost me in the long run, I dug out a Yacht Trader from 1997. Suprisingly enough, every boat is the same price it was almost 10 years ago. A 96 Catalina=$150,000ish and so on. Cabo Rico's maybe more. Apparently the only thing you loose on initial investment is interest you would have earned on the money. Most of you may have known this but it was a shocker to me and makes me more willing to spend more. The bad thing I noticed was in the back there are waterfront houses for sale. $125,000 ranchers on the intercoastal. Those people are now on suicide watch.
In looking at how much this is going to cost me in the long run, I dug out a Yacht Trader from 1997. Suprisingly enough, every boat is the same price it was almost 10 years ago. A 96 Catalina=$150,000ish and so on. Cabo Rico's maybe more. Apparently the only thing you loose on initial investment is interest you would have earned on the money. Most of you may have known this but it was a shocker to me and makes me more willing to spend more. The bad thing I noticed was in the back there are waterfront houses for sale. $125,000 ranchers on the intercoastal. Those people are now on suicide watch.
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