Was asked in the last post as to my (PHRF) rating. This is a new put as we need thread traffic to make this racing section look interesting. The Gulf Yachting Associating issued its rating book today for the PHRF race boats on the north west side of the Gulf of Mexico. I requested a review in Dec 2002 of my rating. GYA issued a revised rating for my HL 35 for the 2003 race season at 153. I plan to race in the spin class with an asymetrical spinner. I do not think I will race to this new PHRF rating. With the shoal draft, wing keel, interior cruise boat configuration the boat is still not competive at 153. The GYA race committee provided a copy of the US Sailing list of Hunter race boats (HL35 family) that shows the rating in the various sections of the country. The number of HL35/35.5 racing (ie: with PHRF rating) is also displayed. The list is not impressive. I asked GYA to justify my base rating issued in 1990. It appears from this US Sailing list that they took the phrf average of the boats on the US Sailing list at that time. I doubt very much if there is a Hunter 35 or 35.5 tha can race to a PHRF of 153. I will post the US Sailing list (re: HL35 and other Hunter sail boats {page 59 of some book}) on my web site shortly. There is an odd itme in their rating structure that shows two HL 35's in the years '96 through '01 in four areas with the following header: "HUNTER 35 LGND WK + 246". Does anybody know what the "246" tag means. ?? If you want to continue this PHRF thread please check in with your comments and questions. PHRF is here. It is a good system - if it goes dynamic. RD.
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My PHRF is 123!
I've got an '88 Legend 35 and they gave me a PHRF of 123 with a spinnaker and a feathering prop and shoal draft keel. This was around 1990 or '91. Only raced one race, that last big one of the year with about 130 boats, and came in 4th in my class against some of the top boats in Puget Sound. Actually lead my class after 7.5 hours but because I didn't have any sail numbers the committee boat thought I "crashed" the race and didn't take my time down when I crossed. I was only 6 seconds out of 3rd and 2.5 minutes out of 1st, and that's using 123. It was a lot of fun! To change my rating I would have to basically protest but I didn't want to bother. My boat is now set up for cruising with tons of batteries and other stuff. I've raced a few local beer can races and did fairly well but the handicap is a killer. This is a great picture - shows me ahead of a Hinkley 59 (blue hull) and an assortment of other boats including several Catalinas in the 40 and 42 foot range - and this is boat-for-boat!
I've got an '88 Legend 35 and they gave me a PHRF of 123 with a spinnaker and a feathering prop and shoal draft keel. This was around 1990 or '91. Only raced one race, that last big one of the year with about 130 boats, and came in 4th in my class against some of the top boats in Puget Sound. Actually lead my class after 7.5 hours but because I didn't have any sail numbers the committee boat thought I "crashed" the race and didn't take my time down when I crossed. I was only 6 seconds out of 3rd and 2.5 minutes out of 1st, and that's using 123. It was a lot of fun! To change my rating I would have to basically protest but I didn't want to bother. My boat is now set up for cruising with tons of batteries and other stuff. I've raced a few local beer can races and did fairly well but the handicap is a killer. This is a great picture - shows me ahead of a Hinkley 59 (blue hull) and an assortment of other boats including several Catalinas in the 40 and 42 foot range - and this is boat-for-boat!
Attachments
Comparisons
I have been dealing with my local PHRF ratings committee for a couple of years on Hunter ratings. One of the things I came up with over the winter was comparing the ratings of Catalinas to similar Hunters. It appears that Catalinas rate 15-20 seconds better accross the board when compared to Hunters. As an example, compare a Hunter 34 against a Catalina 34: range of 135-150 for a Hutner and 141-165 for a Catalina. With almost identical specs, are Hunters such fast race boats and Catalinas such a pig to rate such a difference? I don't think so, since I race against a Catalina and don't beat him by 15 seconds a mile. The ratings are supposed to be based upon what a boat does in 8-10 knots of wind. Both Catalinas and Hunters are "heavy air" boats. When the wind is blowing 15-18 knots, my Hunter will stand up and take on any boat. With winds below 10, I might as well stay homw with my rating. I have a new 356 this year, and I am asking for a rating as if it was a Catalina. There aren't that many Hunters that race, and I believe that it may be because the rating isn't too fair. I am told if more race, then they will adjust the rating accordingly. More don't race because the rating is not fair. Just a circle with no end. Just wondering how others do in match racing like sized Hunters VS Catalinas? Steve
I have been dealing with my local PHRF ratings committee for a couple of years on Hunter ratings. One of the things I came up with over the winter was comparing the ratings of Catalinas to similar Hunters. It appears that Catalinas rate 15-20 seconds better accross the board when compared to Hunters. As an example, compare a Hunter 34 against a Catalina 34: range of 135-150 for a Hutner and 141-165 for a Catalina. With almost identical specs, are Hunters such fast race boats and Catalinas such a pig to rate such a difference? I don't think so, since I race against a Catalina and don't beat him by 15 seconds a mile. The ratings are supposed to be based upon what a boat does in 8-10 knots of wind. Both Catalinas and Hunters are "heavy air" boats. When the wind is blowing 15-18 knots, my Hunter will stand up and take on any boat. With winds below 10, I might as well stay homw with my rating. I have a new 356 this year, and I am asking for a rating as if it was a Catalina. There aren't that many Hunters that race, and I believe that it may be because the rating isn't too fair. I am told if more race, then they will adjust the rating accordingly. More don't race because the rating is not fair. Just a circle with no end. Just wondering how others do in match racing like sized Hunters VS Catalinas? Steve
A View from the Other Side of the Fence
In Northern California, the base PHRF rate for a Hunter 34 is 144, and a H34 LK is 141. The Catalina 34 standard rig rates as 147. The C34 TR is 144 and C34 wing keel is 153. The Hunter 35.5 is 138, the same as a C36 TR. The base ratings (for production boats) are worked through a series of calculations using the normal performance ratios such as SA/D, D/L, Ballast etc. These are applied evenly to all production boats. Hunter's specs tend to make them just a little lower in PHRF. Fractional rigs also lend themselves to lower ratings. Here in San Francisco Bay, you need an act of god (In fact, I believe he sits on the PHRF committee) to change a base rate. I've been trying for years just to get an adjustment for roller furling with no success. If they gave me the allowance, they tell me, then they would have to adjust the J105s, etc. The committee is more willing to work with you if your boat is custom or otherwise a "rare bird". I don't think there's a skipper alive who thinks his rating is fair. Besides, most courses are short enough that by taking advantage of an opponent's single mistake is sufficient to overcome a 10-15 second PHRF difference. Hunters aren't that actively raced out here and I haven't had the opportunity to go against them. I understand that there are a couple of older Hunter 34s that race in the North Bay, but most of the C34s race in the Central Bay. I would love to go against a B&R rigged 340, just to see how that big, roachie main performs.
In Northern California, the base PHRF rate for a Hunter 34 is 144, and a H34 LK is 141. The Catalina 34 standard rig rates as 147. The C34 TR is 144 and C34 wing keel is 153. The Hunter 35.5 is 138, the same as a C36 TR. The base ratings (for production boats) are worked through a series of calculations using the normal performance ratios such as SA/D, D/L, Ballast etc. These are applied evenly to all production boats. Hunter's specs tend to make them just a little lower in PHRF. Fractional rigs also lend themselves to lower ratings. Here in San Francisco Bay, you need an act of god (In fact, I believe he sits on the PHRF committee) to change a base rate. I've been trying for years just to get an adjustment for roller furling with no success. If they gave me the allowance, they tell me, then they would have to adjust the J105s, etc. The committee is more willing to work with you if your boat is custom or otherwise a "rare bird". I don't think there's a skipper alive who thinks his rating is fair. Besides, most courses are short enough that by taking advantage of an opponent's single mistake is sufficient to overcome a 10-15 second PHRF difference. Hunters aren't that actively raced out here and I haven't had the opportunity to go against them. I understand that there are a couple of older Hunter 34s that race in the North Bay, but most of the C34s race in the Central Bay. I would love to go against a B&R rigged 340, just to see how that big, roachie main performs.
Websites
Robert, There are all kinds of PRHF Ratings on the internet. You can easily find them using a search engine. I use google. I typed in PHRF Hunter and got a lot to pick from. I included one that I found from the Northeast in the link box below. good luck, Mike D
Robert, There are all kinds of PRHF Ratings on the internet. You can easily find them using a search engine. I use google. I typed in PHRF Hunter and got a lot to pick from. I included one that I found from the Northeast in the link box below. good luck, Mike D
Legend 37 rating
I race my 89 Legend 37 in central east coast Florida. They currently have me at PHRF 111 with asymetrical spinnaker, 135% mylar genoa and feathering prop. I think it is low by 8-10 seconds/mile but have not been able to get it adjusted so far.
I race my 89 Legend 37 in central east coast Florida. They currently have me at PHRF 111 with asymetrical spinnaker, 135% mylar genoa and feathering prop. I think it is low by 8-10 seconds/mile but have not been able to get it adjusted so far.
Del & George
Del, Looking in the 2002 PHRF ratings book, they list a Hunter 37 legend and a Hunter 37 Legend Wing Keel. Both have ratings that vary significantly. There are 14 boats listed for the full keel (range from low of 99 to high of 122 with one 162 that I think is wrong) and 20 wing keel boats (low of 99 to high of 120). Most are around the 111 of your rating. These are supposed to base ratings, without props and roller furling added or oversize sails taking away. My only suggestion is get facts on other boats of similar size & sailplan and take that to the board. They don't want to hear anything about how your particular boat does. George, My point was that I don't think Catalinas are bad boats, but I don't think Hunters are so much faster to rate the difference. As you mentioned, once they open the can of worms, they might have to rethink all the ratings of older boats. The problem that I see is that once a boat get assigned a rating, right or worng, that is the rating they will always have. Unless, of course, you win a couple Macs and your name is Bob Seager. I hear they took a lot away from him over the winter. So much for no changes... Steve
Del, Looking in the 2002 PHRF ratings book, they list a Hunter 37 legend and a Hunter 37 Legend Wing Keel. Both have ratings that vary significantly. There are 14 boats listed for the full keel (range from low of 99 to high of 122 with one 162 that I think is wrong) and 20 wing keel boats (low of 99 to high of 120). Most are around the 111 of your rating. These are supposed to base ratings, without props and roller furling added or oversize sails taking away. My only suggestion is get facts on other boats of similar size & sailplan and take that to the board. They don't want to hear anything about how your particular boat does. George, My point was that I don't think Catalinas are bad boats, but I don't think Hunters are so much faster to rate the difference. As you mentioned, once they open the can of worms, they might have to rethink all the ratings of older boats. The problem that I see is that once a boat get assigned a rating, right or worng, that is the rating they will always have. Unless, of course, you win a couple Macs and your name is Bob Seager. I hear they took a lot away from him over the winter. So much for no changes... Steve
Robert, I believe that the "246" indicates the number in the production run. My base rating @ YRA-LIS (Long Island) was 144. They knocked me 6sec for my keel change, but I am outrunning boats with phrf's of 120-126 without a handicap applied. This past summer we raced in a division with J-29(123),Olson 29(123),Frers 30(129),Baltic 37(120)and quite a few other very good boats and beat them ALL to the finish line. The L35.5 is a very under rated boat in my opinoin.
Hunter 356 PHRF
I just received my new rating from the Chesapeake PHRF. Our 356 is rated at 129 this year. The base rating is a 132, but we are carrying a larger main which gives us a penalty. We do have a folding prop (new this year). In light air the boat was a pig. Hopefully there will be some breezes this year. We race with an Asymetric spinaker and a 125 racing jib both from Quantum. Also changed the roller furling to a Profurl R35.
I just received my new rating from the Chesapeake PHRF. Our 356 is rated at 129 this year. The base rating is a 132, but we are carrying a larger main which gives us a penalty. We do have a folding prop (new this year). In light air the boat was a pig. Hopefully there will be some breezes this year. We race with an Asymetric spinaker and a 125 racing jib both from Quantum. Also changed the roller furling to a Profurl R35.
Hunter/ Catalina
A few years back('96) I was involved in a Hunter Owners vs Catalina Owners race. Five Hunters of various sizes crossed the finish line before the first Catalina came in. With a dominantly Catalina field by numbers, we completely overran them.
A few years back('96) I was involved in a Hunter Owners vs Catalina Owners race. Five Hunters of various sizes crossed the finish line before the first Catalina came in. With a dominantly Catalina field by numbers, we completely overran them.
SF Bay Racing Hunters
I don't know of any Hunters newer than my '92 33.5 rated at 144, and a 35.5 rated at 132( he put on a fin keel with a 6 sec penalty), currently racing in San Francisco. If I was the PHRF guru I'd put my rating at 150, but haven't done badly enough to protest it. The 35.5 and I have both put on running backs which adds at least 5 degrees of point, but I don't think his switch to the fin keel has helped him at all, at least not vs me.
I don't know of any Hunters newer than my '92 33.5 rated at 144, and a 35.5 rated at 132( he put on a fin keel with a 6 sec penalty), currently racing in San Francisco. If I was the PHRF guru I'd put my rating at 150, but haven't done badly enough to protest it. The 35.5 and I have both put on running backs which adds at least 5 degrees of point, but I don't think his switch to the fin keel has helped him at all, at least not vs me.
Fin Keel??
Whose fin keel?? I'm real interested to find another 35.5 with a fin. I thought I was the only one. If you can let me know if this is one of the Alabama keels that Hunter offered back in the 80's or an original design? Also wondering about your runners. How much did your local PHRF hit you for and how much do you think they are worth? I am using a strut on the mast that the Liberty Cup boats had to control headstay tension in place of the runners and it didn't cost me!
Whose fin keel?? I'm real interested to find another 35.5 with a fin. I thought I was the only one. If you can let me know if this is one of the Alabama keels that Hunter offered back in the 80's or an original design? Also wondering about your runners. How much did your local PHRF hit you for and how much do you think they are worth? I am using a strut on the mast that the Liberty Cup boats had to control headstay tension in place of the runners and it didn't cost me!
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