We all like to talk about the "good" things about our boats. Anyone want to tell the marine industry about whats wrong with their designs? I just got through advising an O'Day owner he has to cut out his fiberglass ceiling pan to access the backing nuts of his deck hardware. Why wouldn't the designers envision a day when they would have to be rebedded and provide access holes? Another one of my pet peeves is the lack of good hull protection through a substantial, replaceable and reasonable looking rubstrake. After all we may have excellent skills in manouvering our boats, but others don't and eventually one will careen of our hulls. Replacing these vinyl strips is expensive and a royal pain. Still another is lack of substantial scuppers in the cockpit floor pan. Something that will take away unwanted water in more than just a trickle. How about substantial stanchions, ones that are tall enough to be more than just a tripping hazard, strong enough and well backed to repel a body back into the boat without bending like a pretzel. I have others but I've ranted enough. I realize O'Day is long gone and can't be held accountable. Don't get me wrong. I like my O'day, a lot. Overall its been a great boat for my family and I. How about Catalina's and Hunter's. Do they really listen to their owners? Have they made boneheaded decisions in their boats? Thanks. Don
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Of course!
That's why our boats are so "cheap." Most of the issues you raise can easily be found on bluewater boats. Tall stanchions, big scuppers, solid rubstrakes - you just described a Crealock 37! Boat manufacturers have a choice: they can either make a few really well built boats for a few people OR they can lower the costs of producing a boat so they can sell more to more people. There are benefits in both types so it's important to know what you want in a boat before buying. For coastal cruising, these qualities are usually not necessary. LaDonna
That's why our boats are so "cheap." Most of the issues you raise can easily be found on bluewater boats. Tall stanchions, big scuppers, solid rubstrakes - you just described a Crealock 37! Boat manufacturers have a choice: they can either make a few really well built boats for a few people OR they can lower the costs of producing a boat so they can sell more to more people. There are benefits in both types so it's important to know what you want in a boat before buying. For coastal cruising, these qualities are usually not necessary. LaDonna
Don, you have only begun...
Don, The one thing I have seen is that there is no perfect production boat. My latest acquisition a "78" O'day 25, s/v "Exhibit A"is a major project. I bought for a good price. However I had to scrape, clean, and reglue the fabric liner.I current have 90% of the hardware, rails and teak removed. The boat was used hard but it is sound though it does have many small spider cracks. I have decided to paint the deck and topsides, so none of the hardware will go back on this winter. The only thing that was bedded properly so far was the genoa track. The pulpits had minimal silicone ( There is no place on a boat for silicone..I hope the manufactures are reading this! Almost all the manufacturers are using it presently on thier new boats.Stop using it!) I have removed the galley sink which someone at some point tried to seal with a bead of silicone around the outside edge..( This not only does not work on sinks it does not work on leaky ports..) The true hulls had no valves... the nylon cockpit drain had a hard rubber radiator type hose on it and with the deflection of the deck to hull,( as slight as it is) has cracked the nylon throught hull. None of the hardware had backing plates.. thus small spiders at each piece of hardware. I also wish O'Day had been money wise when they fastened every thing with with 2" screws and nut even if a 1/2" screw and nut would work. I do wish that the rudder had been a swing setup like my old Paceship. That may be a project in the future. I do like the boat and I hope to have "Exhibit A" swing on a ball by June with new paint and rebeded hardware. I agree with the rub rail.. Rudy just sent me 60' of reciever portion of the rail. Please note that any boat of the 70 early 80 vintage is due for a rebeding. The materials they had then are not nearly as good as the produces available now. Come on, fessup your boats problems... r.w.landau
Don, The one thing I have seen is that there is no perfect production boat. My latest acquisition a "78" O'day 25, s/v "Exhibit A"is a major project. I bought for a good price. However I had to scrape, clean, and reglue the fabric liner.I current have 90% of the hardware, rails and teak removed. The boat was used hard but it is sound though it does have many small spider cracks. I have decided to paint the deck and topsides, so none of the hardware will go back on this winter. The only thing that was bedded properly so far was the genoa track. The pulpits had minimal silicone ( There is no place on a boat for silicone..I hope the manufactures are reading this! Almost all the manufacturers are using it presently on thier new boats.Stop using it!) I have removed the galley sink which someone at some point tried to seal with a bead of silicone around the outside edge..( This not only does not work on sinks it does not work on leaky ports..) The true hulls had no valves... the nylon cockpit drain had a hard rubber radiator type hose on it and with the deflection of the deck to hull,( as slight as it is) has cracked the nylon throught hull. None of the hardware had backing plates.. thus small spiders at each piece of hardware. I also wish O'Day had been money wise when they fastened every thing with with 2" screws and nut even if a 1/2" screw and nut would work. I do wish that the rudder had been a swing setup like my old Paceship. That may be a project in the future. I do like the boat and I hope to have "Exhibit A" swing on a ball by June with new paint and rebeded hardware. I agree with the rub rail.. Rudy just sent me 60' of reciever portion of the rail. Please note that any boat of the 70 early 80 vintage is due for a rebeding. The materials they had then are not nearly as good as the produces available now. Come on, fessup your boats problems... r.w.landau
Step Up From Kit Boats
LaDonna said what I was thinking. I have a laundry list of things that should have been done or done better/differently but these boats are in the Ford/Chevy bracket. One of the things that could be done at no cost is to provide space for aftermarket additions. For example, provide a space for the refrigeration compressor and evaporator and not leave it to the buyer of the boat to figure something out. Ditto for the windlass, heater, additional batteries, etc. Some boats do provide a place for some items like additional winches or a windless but for mine there are no instructions or information. I had to find out the hard way. The newer larger Hunters are "plumed" for an airconditioner. There are exceptions but I think they could do more. Insulation of ice box: if they don't provide enough then provide a way the owner can add additional. Don't build cabinetry around the box so one can't access the ice box without cutting holes. Stainless screws in aluminum: coat with an antiseze material. These boats look good at the boat show, lots of open space inside (no storage). They can be a good value though because of massive buying leverage and production techniques. Bottom line, basically these boats are a step up from kit boats. If one wants a better boat they're available - but they cost a lot more.
LaDonna said what I was thinking. I have a laundry list of things that should have been done or done better/differently but these boats are in the Ford/Chevy bracket. One of the things that could be done at no cost is to provide space for aftermarket additions. For example, provide a space for the refrigeration compressor and evaporator and not leave it to the buyer of the boat to figure something out. Ditto for the windlass, heater, additional batteries, etc. Some boats do provide a place for some items like additional winches or a windless but for mine there are no instructions or information. I had to find out the hard way. The newer larger Hunters are "plumed" for an airconditioner. There are exceptions but I think they could do more. Insulation of ice box: if they don't provide enough then provide a way the owner can add additional. Don't build cabinetry around the box so one can't access the ice box without cutting holes. Stainless screws in aluminum: coat with an antiseze material. These boats look good at the boat show, lots of open space inside (no storage). They can be a good value though because of massive buying leverage and production techniques. Bottom line, basically these boats are a step up from kit boats. If one wants a better boat they're available - but they cost a lot more.
Mass Production = Mass Problems
THe boats are being designed with no thought in mind about servicing the boat. Engines are installed in thehull and ten surrounded with prebuilt cabinetry. Thru hulls are installed and plumbed then covered over by interior parts. Here is a listI would like to see addressed: Engine access, wiring access, pluming access, weep holes and water channeling in the grid, all throug bolts accessible inside, larger backing plates.
THe boats are being designed with no thought in mind about servicing the boat. Engines are installed in thehull and ten surrounded with prebuilt cabinetry. Thru hulls are installed and plumbed then covered over by interior parts. Here is a listI would like to see addressed: Engine access, wiring access, pluming access, weep holes and water channeling in the grid, all throug bolts accessible inside, larger backing plates.
Compromise
You refer to issues and concerns that come up in this forum frequently, and there are many more which come with production boats. Remember that cost is the target of the designer for most production boat companys. Hunter, Beneteau, Catalina Bavaria and a few others are targeting the lower cost coastal cruising market. I looked hard at Hylas, Passport and Taswell before I purchased my Hunter Passage 450 last year. The $250,000 to $300,000 savings was worth the compromises which were few. I am satisisfied with my decission. I do not intend to cross oceans or cruise the world. Tale Winds
You refer to issues and concerns that come up in this forum frequently, and there are many more which come with production boats. Remember that cost is the target of the designer for most production boat companys. Hunter, Beneteau, Catalina Bavaria and a few others are targeting the lower cost coastal cruising market. I looked hard at Hylas, Passport and Taswell before I purchased my Hunter Passage 450 last year. The $250,000 to $300,000 savings was worth the compromises which were few. I am satisisfied with my decission. I do not intend to cross oceans or cruise the world. Tale Winds
Nicely Said Len
I really agree with Len. My Hunter 340 is a nice balance between my need and my pocketbook. Had a friend just buy a new Tayana It was delievered in December, 2000. He hopes that they will finally fix everything, including the missing fuel and water tanks, by this November . . . almost a year later.
I really agree with Len. My Hunter 340 is a nice balance between my need and my pocketbook. Had a friend just buy a new Tayana It was delievered in December, 2000. He hopes that they will finally fix everything, including the missing fuel and water tanks, by this November . . . almost a year later.
"Fire up the saw....."
Hey Don, I had to replace the backing for my "rudder mounts" as the old stuff had rotted away. The only way to get at the backing and nuts, was to cut a hole in the back of the cockpit!!!!!! I kept hopeing I knew what I was doing when I fired up that saw. All went well, but I kept thinking, "What a stupid way to design that" Otherwise, I love my O'Day Mariner.
Hey Don, I had to replace the backing for my "rudder mounts" as the old stuff had rotted away. The only way to get at the backing and nuts, was to cut a hole in the back of the cockpit!!!!!! I kept hopeing I knew what I was doing when I fired up that saw. All went well, but I kept thinking, "What a stupid way to design that" Otherwise, I love my O'Day Mariner.
Catalinas
I think my 1980 Catalina 27 was pretty well designed. My main complaint is with it's construction. I have stress cracks like crazy in the cockpit which I find really hard to look at; that's my pet peave. But the boat was cheap, its a lot of fun and it is a really good performer. I'm happy!
I think my 1980 Catalina 27 was pretty well designed. My main complaint is with it's construction. I have stress cracks like crazy in the cockpit which I find really hard to look at; that's my pet peave. But the boat was cheap, its a lot of fun and it is a really good performer. I'm happy!
Good Enough for Now
Hello All: My 1976 Catalina 27 has major stress cracks and I see no good way to fix them. If I had the bucks, I would buy a Sabre or Bristol. Not that I need all the fancy teak, but I'd like a boat that's still going to look good when it's 25 years old. I guess my boat is good enough for now. But hopefully, I'll have a new(er) one in 3-4 years. Thanks, Melody s/v Spice of Life
Hello All: My 1976 Catalina 27 has major stress cracks and I see no good way to fix them. If I had the bucks, I would buy a Sabre or Bristol. Not that I need all the fancy teak, but I'd like a boat that's still going to look good when it's 25 years old. I guess my boat is good enough for now. But hopefully, I'll have a new(er) one in 3-4 years. Thanks, Melody s/v Spice of Life
To bad out of production,MAC25 1984
I spent 9 months taking apart the boat,inspecting,rebuilding.I only found 5 small spyder cracks,the keel has a curve in the center,but overall the boat is very sound.I hit the dock hard when the outboard was't locked and there wasn't even a scratch.The gelcoat came back with a wheel rubout and looks almost new.The outboard bracket was not modified for the 9.9 yam elec.start ,which I used glassed in plywood and steel angle iron,there was no cracks around bracket.This boat should have stayed around and evolved to bigger and better.She sails as good any outher pocket crusier too.
I spent 9 months taking apart the boat,inspecting,rebuilding.I only found 5 small spyder cracks,the keel has a curve in the center,but overall the boat is very sound.I hit the dock hard when the outboard was't locked and there wasn't even a scratch.The gelcoat came back with a wheel rubout and looks almost new.The outboard bracket was not modified for the 9.9 yam elec.start ,which I used glassed in plywood and steel angle iron,there was no cracks around bracket.This boat should have stayed around and evolved to bigger and better.She sails as good any outher pocket crusier too.
friggin water
i've pumped and wiped and tried it all...but water in my h 28.5 always seems to make it on top of the floor boards...that darn GRID....traps water until you lean over.....alsi no way for water fron the engine pan to make it to the bilge without trveling accross my floor...what were they thinking of??????schaefer
i've pumped and wiped and tried it all...but water in my h 28.5 always seems to make it on top of the floor boards...that darn GRID....traps water until you lean over.....alsi no way for water fron the engine pan to make it to the bilge without trveling accross my floor...what were they thinking of??????schaefer
complaints
my only comment, not complaint, is my centerboard line broke but heck it is almost 20 years old and even a 83 mercedes needs some wprk and costs a hell of alot more!there are some loser than i would like lifelines and i still get a little water in the bilge but asi said these are just comments. personally i don't thinbk hunters are very well made
my only comment, not complaint, is my centerboard line broke but heck it is almost 20 years old and even a 83 mercedes needs some wprk and costs a hell of alot more!there are some loser than i would like lifelines and i still get a little water in the bilge but asi said these are just comments. personally i don't thinbk hunters are very well made
Cheap stuff
I think Don has a point re: shortsighted engineering. On my Hunter, there's a few things, but none like hiding thru-bolts behind solid headliners and I understand the economics of building boats for targeted markets and the savings of doing some things not to just one boat, but a whole production run. However, let's do away with plastic portlights; they eventually craze, crack, yellow and fall apart. I plan to replace mine with bronze ones and the overall cost is going to be about $1,800 since I can do the work myself. Looks sharp, won't fall victim to the stuff I mentioned and is more attractive in the long run. I just think if the guys who design them had to actually work on them, things would be a lot different and most owners wouldn't mind paying a little extra for some well-thought-out engineering.
I think Don has a point re: shortsighted engineering. On my Hunter, there's a few things, but none like hiding thru-bolts behind solid headliners and I understand the economics of building boats for targeted markets and the savings of doing some things not to just one boat, but a whole production run. However, let's do away with plastic portlights; they eventually craze, crack, yellow and fall apart. I plan to replace mine with bronze ones and the overall cost is going to be about $1,800 since I can do the work myself. Looks sharp, won't fall victim to the stuff I mentioned and is more attractive in the long run. I just think if the guys who design them had to actually work on them, things would be a lot different and most owners wouldn't mind paying a little extra for some well-thought-out engineering.
The problems on the O'Day you surveyed are not present on my '96 Hunter 26; I have different issues and they are equally bone-headed. If the manufacturers actually sailed these boats for a year, they would probably make some simple design changes that would go a long way toward increasing owner satisfaction. However, none of our boat's problems are serious considering its use. Our H26 is "fit for purpose," which I feel is the key to buying anything. Manufacturers definitely need to take their responsibilities seriously, particularly with regard to personal safety. But are you buying chuck roast or tenderloin? I don't put tenderloin in a beef stew. If I wanted a bluewater-capable boat that would keep me safe through anything barring collision with a freighter, I would have bought a steel hulled boat and no fiberglass hull could possibly compete. Several things on our H26 could have been done better. But I didn't have to pay for bluewater solidity to cruise the Bay either. I equate my Hunter to my Northern Virginia condominium: paper and plastic. Perfectly comfortable, perceived luxury, and very spacious--but not meant for hard use, especially if my life is at stake. But we simply don't need more boat considering how and where we use it. We have found a way around every single disadvantage and none of our fixes cost a lot in dollars or energy (cursing aside). As the boat ages, fixes will become more serious and expensive. But isn't this true of any aging fiberglass boat? The assembly-line production boat business gets credit for making sailing accessible for me in supreme comfort for a reasonable price. I think this is their niche and they fill it well, at least in late 90's models and later. I may have to crawl on my belly to get to my battery switch so they could save $20 in cabling, but I'm still breathing after the experience. It's inconvenient but not life-threatening. You go in with your eyes open and the occasional stupid design, corner-cutting, and lack of heft do not bother you quite as much. Think of the maintenance a '96 model year car requires today and in coming years--talk about a bottomless pit! But if you see a reasonably-priced used Oyster, I'll pay you to let me know.
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