permanent fuel tank

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May 26, 2009
2
2 1992 Gloucester, MA
I have a 1992 Macgregor 26C. Was wondering if anyone had any tips on adding a permanent fuel tank? Bought the boat last year. It came with 2 removable 10 gallon portable tanks, but I am worried these are too dangerous to put in the big stern compartment at the back of boat. We did this all last year, but gas fumes were not venting properly and leaking into cabin area, as there are no vents in this big compartment in stern. Another major issue is there is electrical wiring running through this compartment to the outboard for starter, and other stuff. I want to install a small permanent tank that is vented directly out of the compartment to the outside. Has anyone done this?
 
Oct 18, 2007
707
Macgregor 26S Lucama, NC
Yes, BB, I did it on my 1990 26S.

If you want a gas tank in the lazarette, you need to do a whole package: deck, gas tank, deck fill, external tank vent, lazarette intake and exhaust vents, power blower, and bilge pump.
I first installed a deck in the lazarette to level the floor; this was about 4" above the bottom of the boat at the forward bulkhead, and met the bottom about 6" from where the bottom turns up on both sides, and at the joint between the bottom and transom at the stern. The deck was made from pressure treated plywood resting on pressure treated 2x4s, all covered with a layer of glass cloth and plastic resin, then painted. Be sure to leave some notches in the stringers so water won’t get trapped between them. I made provision for mounting a bilge pump under the deck just behind the forward deck.
I mounted a rectangular 18 gallon plastic tank on the centerline, strapped to the deck. A combination deck fill and vent was installed in the engine well in a position so that I can get a gas nozzle into it easily. The tank is connected to the fill with a piece of 1 ½" gas hose that was outrageously expensive; the vent hose was pretty cheap.
I installed an intake vent in the front bulkhead so it will scoop air from the cockpit. I installed an exhaust vent in the aft starboard corner of the lazarette hatch. For the exhaust vent, I put in a piece of plywood in the corner of the hatch opening to support a 3" dia. flexible aluminum duct which goes down almost to the deck. Just below the hatch opening, I installed a 3" power blower in the duct.
Some of this may seem like overkill, but its what is needed for my understanding USCG and state requirements. I have used this for almost 2 years, and it works well, and I’m happy with it. Of course, I’ve not needed 18 gallons of fuel at any one time yet, because I haven’t taken any long cruises. The first time I took the boat out, I put in 12 gallons of gas. A year and a half later, I still had 3 or 4 gallons, so I put in another 5. Now, 2 years (give or take a week) I still have about 4 or 5 gallons. I figure its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it! -Paul
 
Oct 18, 2007
707
Macgregor 26S Lucama, NC
BB, I forgot to mention that while I was having so much fun in the lazarette, i reworked the cockpit and engine well drain plumbing so that it is against the bulkhead and side of the boat where it is out of the way and doesn't interfere with storing stuff in the lazarette. I took the opportunity to install a Tee in the line for the bilge pump, too. -Paul
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,538
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I like the big internal tank as less frequent and less hassle of filling the tank.

I like the small portable tanks for keeping the gas fresh and its easy to dump into the car at the end of the season.

Can you have both benifits??
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I like the big internal tank as less frequent and less hassle of filling the tank.

I like the small portable tanks for keeping the gas fresh and its easy to dump into the car at the end of the season.

Can you have both benifits??
Walt I want to end up with the permanent tank in the lazarette with outside fill and vented. Like you I want to be able to regulate how much gas is in it and be able to empty it or exchange it. I'll probably end up spending about $70 on an external electric fuel pump and have it permanently mounted and plumbed to the tank. With it I could pump the tank down or dry at any time into another vehicle or tank.

c ya,

Sum

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May 26, 2009
2
2 1992 Gloucester, MA
I was thinking of putting something in like MOELLER


Permanent Below Deck Fuel Tank (see pic) found at West Marine.
-cindy
 

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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I was thinking of putting something in like MOELLER


Permanent Below Deck Fuel Tank (see pic) found at West Marine.
-cindy
I'm interested in one like/similar to those shown. I feel a 14-18 gallon one will take up less physical space than what I'm taking up now with a 6 gallon and the two to four 2 gallon containers we carry depending on where we are going.

c ya,

Sum

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Oct 8, 2008
362
MacGregor/Venture 25 Winthrop Harbor, IL Drummond Island,MI
regulations/limitations?

I seem to remember reading something about requirements such as enclosed area volume, venting , blowers, proper fill hoses etc. Let me look for that link. Might have been in one of those power boat "bibles". I thought about doing the same thing and realized it would be a sizeable amount of work to fabricate an enclosure below deck. I have a large arear directly in front of the transom which has fuel tank written all over it. I settled for an added cockpit floor lazz. I would hate to be inspected by the Coasties, and not meet regs. Not to mention explosive fumes in the cabin.

John
 
Apr 30, 2006
610
Macgregor 26s Kemah, TX
My only take on this is that for 25 years, I owned a boat that had a fixed fuel tank. Every few years, enough crud and condensed water accumulated in the bottom that I had to remove it, which was a real PITA. I would suggest that if you do install a permanent tank, don't install it in such a way that you can't remove it to dump it out and clean it. I really like having a couple of portable tanks that I can keep clean. It's obviously better for the engine, too.
 
Apr 24, 2006
868
Aloha 32 Toronto, Lake Ontario
After installing a 10 gal tank in the laz (regular portable tank), venting the tank, venting the laz, adding a blower - I am now going to rip it all out and use a 1 gal tank that'll fit in the motor well.

Why? Because it's more of a PITA to fill what I expected. To remove it for "legal filling" I have to empty half the laz and almost fall in to reach it. When full, it's VERY heavy to lower and place. I fill it in place with a funnel sometimes. Still have to empty enough junk to reach the tank. Then there is always some dripping from the gerry can/fueling process. It takes a long time for even a few drops to clear from the laz.

Finally, one gallon gives me over 2 hours motoring with my Yammy 4 stroke. We only use it for about 20 minutes to get in/out of our slip.

To make things easier I plan to carry another 1 gal tank in the laz instead of a gerry can. Then I just switch tanks that "once in a blue moon" motoring session.

Of course there is the aspect of actually being legal, compliance with marina rules (Clean Marine program, etc.), INSURANCE IMPLICATIONS and the obvious safety issues that are all resolved.

Something to consider anyway...

Chris
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,538
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
There is actually a 4hp 4 stroke Tohatsu outboard "somewhere" under all the stuff in the picture..:eek:
 

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JDK

.
Jul 12, 2007
213
Mac 26D 1988 New Port Richey, Fl
We do a sort of hybrid (the latest thing, right?) setup where we strap a six-gallon tank down on the raised floor of the laz. We average two gallons of fuel every three trips out the channel to the Gulf, so we use a 1-gallon can to ferry fuel when we need it. The strap on the larger tank is loosened so that we can swivel it towards the hatch, and we use the dripless type of spout, making sure that there is at least room for the entire gallon so that we don't have to stop mid-stream (which we all know can be very difficult). The blower can be seen in the back corner connected to the vent (dryer) hose which goes up to a grill exiting to the motor well. Although we don't use the power vent much, it's nice to have when we get our inspections done.

JDK
 

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Oct 18, 2007
707
Macgregor 26S Lucama, NC
BB & Sum- The 18 gal. tank I put in my 26S is similar to the MOELLER
ones shown in BB's picture. It is connected by a gas hose to a deck fill mounted in the side of the the motor well. The deck fill has an external vent that is connected to the tank vent with a separate hose. You can fill the tank from jerry cans, or simply stop at a gas station and use the gas pump- there's no way to spill gas in the lazarette. With the two laz. vents I added, and the blower in the exhaust vent duct, the Coast Guard requirements are met. The exhaust vent takes air from just above the deck in the lazarette, where any fumes from any source will collect. By strapping the tank in, it can be removed if you need to work on it. Its also nice to have the electric gas guage (mounted in the bulkhead aft of the cockpit, just forward of the motor well) so I know how much gas is there. -Paul
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
BB & Sum- The 18 gal. tank I put in my 26S is similar to the MOELLER
ones shown in BB's picture. It is connected by a gas hose to a deck fill mounted in the side of the the motor well. The deck fill has an external vent that is connected to the tank vent with a separate hose. You can fill the tank from jerry cans, or simply stop at a gas station and use the gas pump- there's no way to spill gas in the lazarette. With the two laz. vents I added, and the blower in the exhaust vent duct, the Coast Guard requirements are met. The exhaust vent takes air from just above the deck in the lazarette, where any fumes from any source will collect. By strapping the tank in, it can be removed if you need to work on it. Its also nice to have the electric gas guage (mounted in the bulkhead aft of the cockpit, just forward of the motor well) so I know how much gas is there. -Paul
Thanks, we all have different needs and I like the info you have presented to those of us who might have the need for more gas on board at times. We only used about 2-3 gallons in 24 days out in Idaho/Canada, but while on Lake Powell that could really change and I would like the permanent tank even when I don't need much gas. I feel if it is installed properly as you have done it will be safer than our current situation of having the 6 gallon in the cockpit and smaller containers in the laz.

I'd really like part numbers and/or links to any of the items you have use for your installation, if you have them, especially the exhaust fan and vents and filler you used.

Thanks,

Sum

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May 4, 2005
4,062
Macgregor 26d Ft Lauderdale, Fl
Sum, I know you are in the dry southwest, so may not be much of an issue, but down south we have a lot of humidity. -on any permanent fuel tank I would recommend a fuel water separator. like the racors: http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_gas/r_gas.html

(old gas is my biggest problem.)


-Holdech, I have 2) 6 gallon portables in the laz, (2cycl mix) and fill them with a clear hose from jerry jugs. (about 1" diameter) the hose is NOT fuel safe, (from HD), but it has worked well for me, and I flush it w/ water after use. you could find one to fit a nozzle from the gas station. I like you can see the fuel going in..
 
Apr 24, 2006
868
Aloha 32 Toronto, Lake Ontario
I have a question regarding a permanent tank and meeting CG regulations. Hopefully someone can find the actual wording but I remember reading somewhere that the compartment occupied by a permanent tank cannot be open to the cabin (regardless of venting, etc.).

On a stock S or D model the laz is open to the cabin via the gunwals and space around the cockpit drain.

I have sealed these on Teliki but curious if there is a spec/definition of "separate" that I needed to meet?

Mr Bill. I like your suggestion. I did see someone on one of our North Channel cruises that had a funnel attached to 1 1/2 inch fuel hose. The bottom was attached to a fitting that screwed onto the tank fill hole (not sure where he got that piece). It was long enough to hook the funnel onto a lifeline away from the laz. Seemed like a good idea as the screw on connection would prevent gas spillage if you accidentally overfilled the tank.

Chris
 
May 4, 2005
4,062
Macgregor 26d Ft Lauderdale, Fl
not sure I like the screw on fitting or not... either way if you over fill you have a problem. -I only put 4-5 gal in my 6 gal tanks...

(chirs aka: chris and lenor? )

chris how did you seal the laz? I used 'great stuff' foam, & I need to do a sniff test soon. I also added a 3 (passive) vent in the motor well last week...


my sailing season starts in mid october.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Read the following from this site ( http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/fedreg.htm ):

§ 183.610 Powered ventilation system.
(a) Each compartment in a boat that
has a permanently installed gasoline
engine with a cranking motor must:
(1) Be open to the atmosphere, or
(2) Be ventilated by an exhaust blower
system.
(b) Each exhaust blower or combination
of blowers must be rated at an air
flow capacity not less than that computed
by the formulas given in Table
183.610, Column 2. Blower rating must
be determined according to AMCA
Standard 210–74, Figure 12, or UL
Standard 1128.

TABLE 183.610 Col. 1
1 Col. 2 2 Col. 3 3

Below 34 ..... Fr=50 ........................ Fo=20

34 to 100 ..... Fr=1.5V ..................... Fo=0.6V


Over 100 ..... Fr=V/2+100 ............... Fo=0.2V+40



1 Net compartment volume of engine compartment and

compartments open there to (V) cubic feet.

2 Rated blower capacity (Fr) cubic feet per minute.

3 Blower system output (Fo) cubic feet per minute.

(c) Each exhaust blower system required

by paragraph (a)(2) of this section


must exhaust air from the boat at

a rate which meets the requirements of
Table 183.610, Column 3 when the engine
is not operating.
(d) Each intake duct for an exhaust
blower must be in the lower one-third
of the compartment and above the normal
level of accumulated bilge water.
(e) More than one exhaust blower
may be used in combination to meet
the requirements of this section.
(f) Each boat that is required to have
an exhaust blower must have a label
that:
(1) Is located as close as practicable
to each ignition switch;
(2) Is in plain view of the operator;
and
(3) Has at least the following information:



WARNING—GASOLINE VAPORS CAN EXPLODE.

BEFORE STARTING ENGINE OPERATE
BLOWER FOR 4 MINUTES AND
CHECK ENGINE COMPARTMENT BILGE
FOR GASOLINE VAPORS.




§ 183.620 Natural ventilation system.

(a) Except for compartments open to

the atmosphere, a natural ventilation

system that meets the requirements of
§ 183.630 must be provided for each compartment
in a boat that:
(1) Contains a permanently installed
gasoline engine;
(2) Has openings between it and a
compartment that requires ventilation,
where the aggregate area of those
openings exceeds 2 percent of the area
between the compartments, except as
provided in paragraph (c) of this section;
(3) Contains a permanently installed
fuel tank and an electrical component
that is not ignition protected in accordance
with § 183.410(a);
(4) Contains a fuel tank that vents
into that compartment; or
(5) Contains a non-metallic fuel tank:
(i) With an aggregate permeability
rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in
24 hours per cubic foot of net compartment
volume, or
(ii) If the net compartment volume is
less than one cubic foot, having a permeability
rate exceeding 1.2 grams of
fuel loss in 24 hours.
NOTE: Reference fuel ‘‘C’’ at 40 degrees Celsius


plus or minus 2 degrees Celsius from

ASTM standard D 471 (incorporated by reference,

see § 183.5) is to be used in determining

the permeability rate.
(b) Each supply opening required in
§ 183.630 must be located on the exterior
surface of the boat.
(c) An accommodation compartment
above a compartment requiring ventilation
that is separated from the
compartment requiring ventilation by
a deck or other structure is excepted
from paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
[CGD 76–082, 44 FR 73027, Dec. 17, 1979, as
amended by CGD 76–082(a), 46 FR 27645, May
21, 1981; CGD 85–059, 51 FR 37577, Oct. 23, 1986;
USCG–1999–5832, 64 FR 34716, June 29, 1999;
USCG–1999–5151, 64 FR 67176, Dec. 1, 1999]
§ 183.630 Standards for natural ventilation.


(a) For the purpose of § 183.620, ‘‘natural ventilation ’’ means an airflow in a compartment in a boat achieved by having:


§ 183.701 33 CFR Ch. I (7–1–04 Edition)


(1) A supply opening or duct from the
atmosphere or from a ventilated compartment
or from a compartment that
is open to the atmosphere; and
(2) An exhaust opening into another
ventilated compartment or an exhaust
duct to the atmosphere.
(b) Each exhaust opening or exhaust
duct must originate in the lower third
of the compartment.
(c) Each supply opening or supply
duct and each exhaust opening or exhaust
duct in a compartment must be
above the normal accumulation of
bilge water.
(d) Except as provided in paragraph
(e) of this section, supply openings or
supply ducts and exhaust openings or
exhaust ducts must each have a minimum
aggregate internal cross-sectional
area calculated as follows:
A=5 ln (V/5);
where:
(1) A is the minimum aggregate internal
cross-sectional area of the openings or
ducts in square inches;
(2) V is the net compartment volume in cubic
feet, including the net volume of other
compartments connected by openings that
exceed 2 percent of the area between the
compartments; and
(3) ln (V/5) is the natural logarithm of the
quantity (V/5).
(e) The minimum internal cross-sectional
area of each supply opening or
duct and exhaust opening or duct must
exceed 3.0 square inches.
(f) The minimum internal cross-sectional
area of terminal fittings for
flexible ventilation ducts installed to
meet the requirements of paragraph (d)
of this section must not be less than 80
percent of the required internal crosssectional
area of the flexible ventilation
duct.
[CGD 76–082, 44 FR 73027, Dec. 17, 1979; 45 FR



7544, Feb. 4, 1980]




The way I read all of that:


1. A power vent is only required if the compartment houses the engine. First part of 183.610. If it doesn't then the next section on natural ventilation could or could not apply according to that section.

2. If the fuel tank itself is vented to the outside like in Paul's case the compartment itself might not need to be vented at all. 183.620 item (4) that says it is needed if the tank vents into the compartment.

3. And Chris to answer your question I could find nothing about cabins, but if you read 183.620 (2) and apply that to the cabin . If the compartment that contains a fuel tank "has to be vented" and if the cabin is attached to that compartment and Has openings between the two where the aggregate area of those openings exceeds 2 percent of the area between the compartments then the cabin would have to also be vented according to 183.630.


Everyone should read these regs and draw their own conclusion. Personally I still believe that a vented (tank itself vented) permanent gas tank is safer than what most of us are doing with portable tanks with vents on them that off gas and even at times emit liquid gas.

Chris how do you tilt your outboard up with even a 1 gallon tank in the well? I can't. Also I'm aware that you use very little gas, but what if you are on say a longer cruise and you had an equipment failure pertaining to the sails, mast or rigging and were force to motor home. Is 1-2 gallons always going to get your there?

c ya,

Sum

 
Apr 24, 2006
868
Aloha 32 Toronto, Lake Ontario
Wow - lots of info!
Easy answer first - I cut 2 inch thick closed cell foam to fit the gunwals and glued them in with 3M 5200. The foam has some give that's needed in areas that twist/bend/expand/contract slightly. I used a rubber plumbing boot to close off the space around the cockpit drain.

The one gallon tank is a vertical design from Sweden. It's only takes up 4 inches of the front section of the motor well - motor still tilts.

I also carry a 5 gallon reserve as well as the second 1 gal tank. The reserve alone is good for over 50 miles.

I did like the vented tank in the laz - until I spilled a cupfull (or more) of gas. Took an entire afternnon to evaporate and then stunk all summer.

Ya, we don't use much gas. Lenore is a die hard sailor - even sails on and off the hook.

Chris
 
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