Performance when reefed

[oldiesrocker2001]

Don, I have a 76 V21 with what are likely the original main. A couple of years ago I had a sailmaker add a deep reef point despite the age of the sail. My plan after listening to many more experienced skippers was to start out with the sail reefed in anything resembling questionable weather and simply 'shake out' the reef if it wasn't needed. While my mast is still waiting for me to devise a gate to make this easier, I tried it a few times. I had trouble pointing anywhere near 45* and often could barely progress past 90*. I tried it both with and without my smallish masthead rigged jib.In the end I simply reset with full main, but had to wonder how i would sail home in heavy weather if i couldn't beat against a stiff breeze when reefed. I realize sail shape goes out the window when reefed but I had yet to try the reefed sail in anything over moderate breezes. Is a reefed main only effective in heavy winds? This was really on my mind about a week ago at Lake George where the marina in 'the narrows' is dead into the wind with heavy winds and chop nearly every day(except the day we departed with a finicky motor...)

 

[Bert]

How's your sail shape?

Assuming you have tried adjusting your outhaul, old sails get stretched out and as a result have too big a belly. If you have a fractional rig, you could flatten the sail some with backstay tension.

You did not say what your sail shape looks like, but if it has severe wrinkles running horizontally that you cannot remove by tightening the halyard or other adjustments, you could have a shrunken bolt rope. This is fairly common on older sails due to the type of line used for the bolt rope. If you want to try to get some more miles out of it, this can be fixed by removing the old bolt rope and replacing it. It will take you a couple of hours.
Abreviated how to is:
= remove stitching at head and foot that goes through bolt rope
= attach new bolt rope to old, take care to make a smooth transition between the two ropes; it has to go easily into the bolt rope sleeve
=tie the other end of the old bolt rope to tree
="milk" the old bolt rope out, pulling the new one in
=Sew in one end of new bolt rope, but leave a tail to tie to the tree again
=adjust tension on new bolt rope to assure sail is evenly tensioned
=Sew in the end of the bolt rope
= Be very careful with the old sail, you can do damage that will be hard to repair. The old fabric and stitching may be too far gone.

Sadly, as old sails get blown out of shape from use, there comes a time when a new or at least a better old sail is the only practical solution to help you point higher. Look for a good used sail on the internet if this is the case.

Bert

 

[Don Guillette]

Reef

Oldiesrocker2001: There are always a number of ways to get around a problem. I don’t know that I would start off from the dock with a reef main. Here’s why and it also why sail shape goes out the window when you are reefed. You really have no way to shape the sail. The outhaul is useless, you can’t use the halyard or Cunningham and with the jib it is either half rolled up or completely rolled up. As I note, I never sailed with a partially rolled up jib because most are not designed for that situation. Mine wasn’t.

The other problem you have is that the entrance to your marina is apparently a narrow slot where the wind direction is directly on your bow and you apparently also do not have lot of room to move from side to side. Even if you had the ability to perfectly trim your sails you can’t do much when your in a head to wind situation – except to maybe sail backwards.

Here’s my theory – any time I had to reef all I wanted to do was get that sucker back to the dock or behind an oil island (there were a couple in long Beach harbor that I was real happy to get behind while I caught my breath and got organized). I could have cared less as to how the sails looked. Once, with a 155 that was snarled, I was hoping it would rip and blow away. Always in the back of my mind in these situations was to douse the sails and motor. Once, on a C25, I was stuck because the motor swamped. I did not like that situation.

If I were in your shoes and where your sailing, I would be sure I had a good motor That probably was not the answer you were looking for but I don’t know what else to tell you.

 

[BobM]

sailcare

If you want to try to get a few more years out of this sail you might wish to try sailcare. A friend of mine did a huge full roach main for a freedom 28 and was very pleased with the job and the price. The process they use shrinks the fabric somewhat restoring the shape of the sail.

 

[oldiesrocker2001]

Conditions under REEFED MAIN

Thanks for the input Don(and others).
While I had heard from some people( including the guy that makes sail mods for me) that a boat will sail better in heavy weather with a reefed sail I'd have to go along with you, Don and reef as only the last resort. I'd rather control the full sail and get somewhere than run around in circles getting nowhere (when following that "reef early and often" advice). Since my boat tends to have a bit of weather helm, I also found it easier steering with the jib up (and maybe depowered)in any weather than worry that the pressure might snap the rudder.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Hmmm, That's interesting, the only

difficulty I have with a reef in the main is in being too lazy to shake it out when the wind dies.

 

[Don Guillette]

Interesting Picture

Ca. Ted: I love pictures!! I see that your main is reefed but it appears your jib is all the way out. On a masthead rig, the engine is the jib and the maainsail is just along for the ride. In the situation in the picture I think the danger has passed and you have not shaken out the reef. Other wise the setup is counter productive - the boat thinks you have"the pedal to the metal".

For others reading this thread, here's a bit of info on reefing. As we all know, the first sail we raise is the mainsail. Some guys roll out the jib first as everyone hears a different drummer and it is what works for you as skipper. After raising the mainsail, you roll out the jib unless of course it is already out. When you reef, you do the opposite. You first roll up the jib and then do your thing with the mainsail.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Exactly right Don,

when I went out it was blowing like snot, deep reef and 2or 3 wraps of the genny still on furler. By the time I ran across the friend who took the picture I should have already taken out the reef, just lazy. You just surprised me when you said you probably wouldn't reef at the dock, thinking of Long Beach (Huntington Flats, Hurricane Gulch etc.) seems more understandable to me now. I've dodged into Los Alamitos for a couple hours rest and libation to get out of that horrible shallow water chop.
In Dana Point you can hit deep water real quick and 20-25 knots wind means time to exceed hull speed for prolonged periods. I've just witnessed so many boats grossly overpowered but not reefed on these kinds of days and always wonder why folks don't reef when they are cutting big S- curves 'cause they can't control the weather helm.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Exactly right, Don

when I went out it was blowing like snot, deep reef and 2or 3 wraps of the genny still on furler. By the time I ran across the friend who took the picture I should have already taken out the reef, just lazy. You just surprised me when you said you probably wouldn't reef at the dock, thinking of Long Beach (Huntington Flats, Hurricane Gulch etc.) seems more understandable to me now. I've dodged into Los Alamitos for a couple hours rest and libation to get out of that horrible shallow water chop.
In Dana Point you can hit deep water real quick and 20-25 knots wind means time to exceed hull speed for prolonged periods. I've just witnessed so many boats grossly overpowered but not reefed on these kinds of days and always wonder why folks don't reef when they are cutting big S- curves 'cause they can't control the weather helm.
Probably should have looked more like this:

 

[rardi : H36 ( Cherubini)]

"Engine is The Jib and the Mainsail ..."

Don:

Thanks for the jib vs. mainsail power comment which caught my appreciative attention, as I had been thinking about posting a question based upon what I am observing from my "newbie" perspective.

Are there references anywhere about sail driving force for various mainsail deployment and jib sizes? (And yes, its about time I purchase your sail trim publication.)

I sail mostly the slot between GG Bridge, SF Water Front, Alcatraz, Angel Island etc. 1980 Cherubini Hunter 36, a heavy boat. With 25-30 knots most afternoons, and still being on the learning curve, I usually am conservative... the mainsail is reefed before going out. If the wind isn't as strong as expected (not the usual case), I can either shake the reef out on the water, or I can I just go somewhat slower for the afternoon (and also not stressing-out my passengers as much is an added benefit of reefing). In my DIY experimental process, I have found that taking in a few turns of the jib reduces heeling just as much, if not more, than reefing the mainsail, and the speed of the boat drops quite noticeably compared to a fully deployed jib. Reduced mainsail area doesn't seem to have as much effect on speed. Also I've seen frequently other cruising type boats on the bay sailing only with their Genoas out in a strong wind and moving along as fast or faster than me with my reefed main and rolled jib. Also they seem to point into the wind better than I am doing with both sails. I recently found and have been using a very good condition second hand jib ex an Olsen 32, which corresponds to about an 85% jib on my boat (and extends up about 4' short of the specified full leech distance). Better control for a learning sailor than my appx 110-120 masthead Genoa, but the boat doesn't seem to point as well as with the Genoa up and certainly I've sacrificed speed.

The thought occurs maybe to put the Genoa back on, let it out all or most of the way, except in the strong winds and sail with a reefed mainsail. The partially deployed Genoa looks and fills terrible however.

I also experimented for a while with a mainsail (second hand acquisition again) for a smaller boat that corresponded fully deployed to maybe about #1.5 reef point on my boat. My impression is that this fully deployed small mainsail performed better than my reefed normal sail.

Thanks.

 

[Don Guillette]

Ca Ted

Ted: Great picture!! When I was doing "On The Water" seminars in So Ca, where 6 sailors would spend 4 hours going through every position on the boat and through every point of sail, the first hour was generally a mess until the folks got into it. On the way back to the dock I would match their sail trim against anyones anywhere in the world!!

Anyway, around the 3rd hour, I would look for other boats near us and the folks would have to tell me what problems they saw with the the set of the sails on the other boat and EXACTLY what controls they would use to fix the situation and most importantly WHY they were using those particular controls for the mainsail and jib. During the seminar they had to do the same thing on our boat.

Now, if we happened to be sailing in the vicinity of Ted's boat, I would ask them to comment on his sails. I would ask them what adjustments should be made. The answer I would get back, and it would be unanimous - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! It looks perfect. The main and jib match, the telltales are streaming, there is minimum heel. I would tell the students that Ted's sail shape and trim is what they should strive for.

Ted - nice looking job there my man.

On reefing at the dock: just a quick comment. Because it was just my wife and myself (which means it was just me), if I had to reef at the dock we would not leave the dock. It is more of a personel thing. Now if I was sailing with a guys who had the skill level of the Catalina National crew I sailed with, winds up to 45 knots, as they were in Santa Cruz on weekend would not bother me. It all boils down to "a man has to know his limitations".

 

[Calif. Ted]

Thanks Don, Afraid my friends would be

quick to point out that it only proves that "even a stopped clock is exactly right twice a day".
On reflection, on the rare occasions I leave the dock reefed it is either alone or with another "old barnacle", rarely someone who's uncomfortable in those conditions, they usually turn green PDQ.*yks

 

[Ray T]

reefed main

One of the things a main does is help the boat to point. If you reef in lighter air you wont have enough pressure on the main to do the job. Another thing that helps you to point is boat speed if you dont have it your pointing will suffer. My advice is dont reef unless the wind is starting to pickup to the point you think you need too. How do you know when you need too? When you start to feel uncomfortable. Experience will answer a lot of your questions. Have fun. Ray T

 

[Scott]

Oldies ... I suspect somethings not right ...

with your sail or your reefing set-up. If your main sail is reefed and flattened, it should have no problem pointing as high as you can when you are not reefed. Do you have too much draft when you reef? You should be able to achieve a nice flat entry and a draft position that enables pointing regardless of whether you are reefed or not.

 

[oldiesrocker2001]

Draft..

Scott, I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure what 'draft' is referring to regarding the sail. I DO however tend to agree with you that somethings wrong with my reef setup after reading some of the reluctant reefer(before I sailed, I thought the phrase meant something else...)responses. I CAN say that the sail is not as flat as I think it could be. Despite giving exact measurements to my rigger one of the sail slugs is located when reefed at the flared opening that the masts on the early Ventures had. This appears to create a wrinkle at that point of the sail. This, of course, is not the only mistake he made and I just kind of took it in stride despite the inconvenience of having to add a padeye that he forgot and having to swing the boom over because he put the reefing lines on the port side despite me telling him that I singlehanded a lot and the haylard is located starboard.... But I digress.. If all goes well this sunday I'll have her out in the water again before they drain any more of spruce run and I'll try to set up with the reef and get my camera to take some pix's

 

[David in Sandusky]

Shaping a reefed sail

With a reefed main, we still have the halyard, the vang, the traveler, and the reefing line (outhaul) to control shape. Although the reefing line is problematic, I have succeeded in using it to reduce sail draft. With the shortened sail, the halyard is more effective, making up for the loss of the cunningham.

In the changing conditions on Lake Erie, we often reef the main underway. Heaving to works like a dream! The boat settles down, even in 20 knot winds, and 4 footers, so I can go forward, and take my time to get it right.

When we roll in our headsail, we move our sheet fairleads forward to avoid excessive twist.

Why reef? Because the boat is slower carrying too much sail, and passengers and the Admiral are justifiably uncomfortable at excessive heel. Why slower?

- weather helm requires excessive rudder use like a big brake in the water.
- heeling reduces sail efficiency.
- wetted surface increases beyond around 20 degrees, causing more friction.
- heeling reduces keel efficiency, especially for a shoal keel. This means more leeway, and more turbulence/friction.

So we are in the "if you think of, it's time to reef" school. If winds are piping up, they usually don't settle at just the right speed. Also, a reef is really easy to shake out.

David
Lady Lillie
'77 h27

 

[Don Guillette]

David (Sandusky Harbor)

Mates: this is what I'm talking about. Take the time to read David's post. He is obviously a sailor who knows what he is talking about. He explains the situation he is sailing in and describes HOW and WHY he handles it - even to the point of handling the outhaul. When I first read the word outhaul I thought opps but as I read on he covered it.

David, nice job mate.

 

[Scott]

Oldies, draft is the belly of the sail.

You should be able to adjust the depth of the draft with the reefing line as David describes. The position of the draft forward vs aft is typically controlled by the combination of the cunningham, boom vang, halyard, outhaul, back stay (for mast bend) and even the main sheet. That is a lot of controls and you probably do not have use of most of them when reefing so I am assuming that is a factor you may not have much control over.

I had a problem with too much draft in the main sail when reefed because I had it set up incorrectly when I first installed my reefing lines. At first, I had the reefing line led from the sheave at the end of the boom to a cheek block on the boom under the reefing grommet (slightly back), then up thru the grommet and then back down to a cheek block on the other side of the boom, then back to a padeye near the end of the boom with the end tied off. I thought this would be the best way to secure the clew to a position close to the boom. I was wrong.

The problem with this was that I couldn't adjust outhaul and the main sail puckered with too much draft, which made performance and pointing poor. My reefing lines are internal to the boom and exit at the gooseneck and then back to the cockpit via organizers and a clutch.

It was a simple fix. I simply led the line from the sheave at the end of the boom directly to the reefing grommet and then down to the cheek block and tied off at the pad eye at the end of the boom. This way, I control outhaul at the working end of the line on a cabin top winch, just as I do the normal outhaul and the clew is still controlled close to the boom. There was no need to use both cheek blocks for one reefing set-up. Actually the second cheek block is free to be used for the second reef point on the extremely rare occasion that I use it.

With normal vang tension and halyard tension, and a flattened sail by using the reefing line as outhaul, I achieve a flatter entry with the draft position at about 50% which is where it should be for pointing. The draft depth is shallower which is the way I want it for pointing in higher winds.

I am not sure I understand why the side that your reefing lines are set-up should make any difference when you are reefing (with your halyard on starboard). If you set up the reefing lines before leaving the dock, it shouldn't matter and you should not have to swing the boom over even if they are set up on the port side.

If Spruce Run gets too low, that you give you a good opportunity to bring your boat up to Lake Hopatcong!

 

[oldiesrocker2001]

block locations

Scott, Thanks for the draft explanation(I didn't really know the term).
Since my rigger was putting a pretty deep reef(nearly as deep as the 2nd reef point on my old O'day 17)both the padeye and cheek block at the end of the boom are pretty far back from the reef grommet. The front grommet padeye, however is set up on the boom instead of a hook on the mast and is simply straight down from the grommet. As you know it rained most of the day today, so no trip to the lake to sail or take pic's of the setup-maybe during the week...
The reef point is likely to be so deep that much of the belly of the sail, where it really show's it's age, is already taken up within the reef, but the sail does seem to "pucker" no matter how tight i adjust the halyard. Though the Venture is a real bear to step and unstep the mast involving a couple of hours for an "old" guy with numerous 'aftermarket' parts in him and a somewhat uncoordinated admiral, I may yet drag Wind up there for a sail(I used to do that with my 17 pretty often with a 20 minute setup and take-down).

 

[Scott]

Oldies, where do you keep your boat?

I didn't think the authorities would let you keep your boat in the water at Spruce Run. Do they have moorings or slips? Are you able to keep it rigged in a parking lot instead? Or do you have to trailer it in from The Sailboat Shop?

I'd bet you could get a mooring at Lee's Park on Lake Hopatcong or maybe a space in the parking lot where you don't have to drop the mast. I know there were new people in here this year. Only the slips have a long waiting list because the County keeps the price so low that nobody wants to give them up. A mooring is just $450 and a parking lot spot may be less. Your season would be extended into November if you want. I have to keep my boat at Barnes over the winter because they are the only marina that can lift it out. You could keep your boat at Lee's ofver the winter if there is a space available. I'd look into it. I would bet that sailing is a little better on Lake Hopatcong then Spruce Run, but I am always curious what it would be like on Round Valley Res. It's far more open there. Too bad I can't use it ... do you?

Back to your draft. It sounds like you may have a single line for reefing the clew and the tack? I would guess that if it is not set up with blocks in just the right way, you could be losing your ability to flatten the sail just because of friction losses. That was the problem I was having when I had the reefing line running through a block on each side of the boom. At first, I was solving it by taking the outhaul off the clew of the sail and attaching the outhaul to the new (reefed) clew. That way, I was able to use outhaul to flatten the sail. The better solution was simply to run the line directly from the sheave at the end of the boom to the clew and then down thru a cheek block to draw the clew to the boom. This works well and allows me to use the reefing line as an outhaul.

My tack is reefed by hooking the ring (rings are attached to a strap thru the reefing grommet) to the rams horn on the gooseneck. I know that many don't like this because it means going forward to the mast in bad weather. I like it because it means less friction in the reefing line so I can use the line to trim outhaul. That is what works for me so I'm sticking with it for now.

I think the point I am trying to make is that if you don't have the ability to use outhaul to flatten your sail when you reef it, you will have a puckered sail that won't point. I think it is critical that you have the ability to outhaul the sail when reefed. There should be no reason why you can't use outhaul when you reef.

A sunny day in the spring prepping the boat at Barnes ...