old mainsail. I am going to buy a new mainsail...my mind is pretty much made up. I have a 94 26s with the original sail. It was kept in very good condition...but has tiny little "pores" all over. My girlfriend thinks that it would be a waste of money, because the old sail works just fine. It does work...but I want to grab every bit of performance (within reason...) and know that a new sail would help, just don't know how much. I'm pretty sure I am going to buy one, because 12 years seems like a long time for a sail to be in service...and (along with a traveler setup and eventually 150 genoa) My question is this....does anyone have any idea about HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE a new mainsail will make? Also, a 12 year old sail is more likely to rip, etc., and so be a little more dangerous, right?
- Status
sounds good
Sounds like good arguments to me. You need to be able to get a good "foil" shape for decent performance. I think I need to do something this winter too. I can't get the wrinkles out of the luff. It also has a few tiny holes. Sale Care has a process to "clean, repair, and restore your sails to like-new condition is one of the most economical steps you can take. Our prices are a mere fraction of the cost of new sails."
Sounds like good arguments to me. You need to be able to get a good "foil" shape for decent performance. I think I need to do something this winter too. I can't get the wrinkles out of the luff. It also has a few tiny holes. Sale Care has a process to "clean, repair, and restore your sails to like-new condition is one of the most economical steps you can take. Our prices are a mere fraction of the cost of new sails."
New Sails
I would think that 12 years is beyond replacement time since from what I have read the average lifespan is 5-10 years. Also keep in mind that Macgregor factory doyle sails are not the same high quality as aftermarket sails. Once you get the new sails on you will notice a vast improvement, everyone does. Old sails simply lose their foil shape and get blown out and are no longer efficient. As for the girlfriends' opinion, well what can I say, what if she decided she needed new shoes when her current pair work just fine, would she get a new pair? You bet she would. My wife bought a new fridge & stove even though the old ones still worked, she replaces all manner of things on a whim. But on the other hand money spent on your boat is money that won't be spent on her.
I would think that 12 years is beyond replacement time since from what I have read the average lifespan is 5-10 years. Also keep in mind that Macgregor factory doyle sails are not the same high quality as aftermarket sails. Once you get the new sails on you will notice a vast improvement, everyone does. Old sails simply lose their foil shape and get blown out and are no longer efficient. As for the girlfriends' opinion, well what can I say, what if she decided she needed new shoes when her current pair work just fine, would she get a new pair? You bet she would. My wife bought a new fridge & stove even though the old ones still worked, she replaces all manner of things on a whim. But on the other hand money spent on your boat is money that won't be spent on her.
Thanks for the info.
Good to know I can expect better performance! As far as "her opinion", I think you hit the nail right on the head with your last sentence Capt. Kermie! (though she would never admit it...)
Good to know I can expect better performance! As far as "her opinion", I think you hit the nail right on the head with your last sentence Capt. Kermie! (though she would never admit it...)
Mainsail Purchase
I bought a new mainsail at the beginning of this year. I got a really good deal on a genoa, so I did not buy a new headsail, but I am about to get a new working jib. One of the potential problems with an aged sail is the migration of the thickest part of the foil shape towards the leech of the sail (a blown out sail). It has been suggested that you photograph your sails while in use from underneath to see this effect. The movement of this part of the sail aft will contribute to heeling, so if your SO is afraid of the angle of the boat, maybe that is a justification for buying new. Of course having the widest chord move aft has a negative effect on performance all around. The comment that the original sails were not the best quality when new, is quite correct. All of the systems on our boats are just good enough from the factory, and the systems go downhill from there. When you get your new sail, you will see how marginal the original sails were (are?). As an example, I made a mainsail cover out of Sunbrella for my OEM D mainsail, and it was a snug fit. The new mainsail won't even come close to fitting inside the old cover, there is just that much more to the modern sail. Even the batten pockets on a new sail are things of beauty, re-inforcing and adjustable tensioners make the battens in our OEMs look pretty, well, marginal. OK, now for performance changes. I noticed immediately when I first used my new mainsail that I could point higher than before. I am very aware of the performance of my boat, I have added an Idasailor rudder and daggerboard and have measured that change from the stock gear. The new mainsail increased the pointing noticably. My new sail has 4 battens, the two at the top are full length to support the extra roach, the bottom two are partial to make for easier handling. The sailmaker of the new sail attached a tell tale at each batten pocket. I know that this will sound simple, but I did not have/use telltales on the leach of my OEM mainsail. I immediately realized that I had been sheeting my original sail way too tight. Even if I still had my old mainsail, I would want to have telltales on the leach. I decided to have a loose footed mainsail, and installed a variable outhaul to allow for optimum sail shaping. I had a single row of reef points added at the height I desired. Draft stripe will also help with shaping. And the new slugs make hoisting very easy, even when not perfectly aligned with the wind. I have yet to rig the cunningham grommet and adjuster. Since you posted that you'd like to obtain every bit of performance, can I assume you mean speed and pointing ability? That is why I am getting a new working jib. I want the tighter sheeting angle on the headsail that a 100 or 105% jib will give me. Anything that gives advantage when going to weather. The original bedsheet did not respond to the basic or secondary sail shaping adjusters. The new sail will wrinkle to show what needs to be adjusted. Prior to your mainsail purchase, and prior to your measurements (don't buy a sail unless you or someone measures your boat), it would be BEST to have some new systems: boom vang, adjustable backstay, the aforementioned mainsail outhaul, traveler, possibly new halyard and this is just for the main. It might be beneficial to reset your mast rake as well. I know that this level of change and investment is not for everyone. I believe that with this kind of equipment, you can shape your new mainsail to the best advantage. By the way, I used Air Force Sails to make my new mainsail. John S Boise
I bought a new mainsail at the beginning of this year. I got a really good deal on a genoa, so I did not buy a new headsail, but I am about to get a new working jib. One of the potential problems with an aged sail is the migration of the thickest part of the foil shape towards the leech of the sail (a blown out sail). It has been suggested that you photograph your sails while in use from underneath to see this effect. The movement of this part of the sail aft will contribute to heeling, so if your SO is afraid of the angle of the boat, maybe that is a justification for buying new. Of course having the widest chord move aft has a negative effect on performance all around. The comment that the original sails were not the best quality when new, is quite correct. All of the systems on our boats are just good enough from the factory, and the systems go downhill from there. When you get your new sail, you will see how marginal the original sails were (are?). As an example, I made a mainsail cover out of Sunbrella for my OEM D mainsail, and it was a snug fit. The new mainsail won't even come close to fitting inside the old cover, there is just that much more to the modern sail. Even the batten pockets on a new sail are things of beauty, re-inforcing and adjustable tensioners make the battens in our OEMs look pretty, well, marginal. OK, now for performance changes. I noticed immediately when I first used my new mainsail that I could point higher than before. I am very aware of the performance of my boat, I have added an Idasailor rudder and daggerboard and have measured that change from the stock gear. The new mainsail increased the pointing noticably. My new sail has 4 battens, the two at the top are full length to support the extra roach, the bottom two are partial to make for easier handling. The sailmaker of the new sail attached a tell tale at each batten pocket. I know that this will sound simple, but I did not have/use telltales on the leach of my OEM mainsail. I immediately realized that I had been sheeting my original sail way too tight. Even if I still had my old mainsail, I would want to have telltales on the leach. I decided to have a loose footed mainsail, and installed a variable outhaul to allow for optimum sail shaping. I had a single row of reef points added at the height I desired. Draft stripe will also help with shaping. And the new slugs make hoisting very easy, even when not perfectly aligned with the wind. I have yet to rig the cunningham grommet and adjuster. Since you posted that you'd like to obtain every bit of performance, can I assume you mean speed and pointing ability? That is why I am getting a new working jib. I want the tighter sheeting angle on the headsail that a 100 or 105% jib will give me. Anything that gives advantage when going to weather. The original bedsheet did not respond to the basic or secondary sail shaping adjusters. The new sail will wrinkle to show what needs to be adjusted. Prior to your mainsail purchase, and prior to your measurements (don't buy a sail unless you or someone measures your boat), it would be BEST to have some new systems: boom vang, adjustable backstay, the aforementioned mainsail outhaul, traveler, possibly new halyard and this is just for the main. It might be beneficial to reset your mast rake as well. I know that this level of change and investment is not for everyone. I believe that with this kind of equipment, you can shape your new mainsail to the best advantage. By the way, I used Air Force Sails to make my new mainsail. John S Boise
you gotta know how to handle it
Buying new sails is always the best single improvement you can make to your boat if your sails are > 8 years old. However, if you've never sailed with tight sails, don't expect everything to magically fall into a perfect foil shape every time. You still have to have the proper sail controls and know-how to get and keep a good shape to your sails. Every sail will have a "sweet spot" combination of line settings for a given wind condition, and it's up to you to find them. So if you don't care to bother tweaking and tuning your sail trim often, don't waste your money on brand new sails. But if you think that eeking the last bit of performance from your sails is fun, and are willing to spend the time to learn how to do it properly, then go ahead and splurge on new sails. When I first bought my Mac, the sails were old and baggy. I used to do some club racing, so I knew what proper trim is and how to get it. But no matter what I did to those old sails, I couldn't get proper trim. So I gave up trying. Then when I did get new sails a year later, I was disappointed at first because I wasn't feeling like I was getting as much performance out of them as I thought I should. Well duh, it was my fault. I'd become lazy and never thought to adjust my outhaul or vang or backstay tension. My halyards were too tight and my jib sheeting angle was wrong. It seems really obvious when you're reading about it on a forum, but for me, it was almost like I had to kick myself in the rear to snap out of the "same 'ol, same 'ol" routine of just yanking as hard as I could on the halyards, outhaul, and sheets and hoping for decent trim.
Buying new sails is always the best single improvement you can make to your boat if your sails are > 8 years old. However, if you've never sailed with tight sails, don't expect everything to magically fall into a perfect foil shape every time. You still have to have the proper sail controls and know-how to get and keep a good shape to your sails. Every sail will have a "sweet spot" combination of line settings for a given wind condition, and it's up to you to find them. So if you don't care to bother tweaking and tuning your sail trim often, don't waste your money on brand new sails. But if you think that eeking the last bit of performance from your sails is fun, and are willing to spend the time to learn how to do it properly, then go ahead and splurge on new sails. When I first bought my Mac, the sails were old and baggy. I used to do some club racing, so I knew what proper trim is and how to get it. But no matter what I did to those old sails, I couldn't get proper trim. So I gave up trying. Then when I did get new sails a year later, I was disappointed at first because I wasn't feeling like I was getting as much performance out of them as I thought I should. Well duh, it was my fault. I'd become lazy and never thought to adjust my outhaul or vang or backstay tension. My halyards were too tight and my jib sheeting angle was wrong. It seems really obvious when you're reading about it on a forum, but for me, it was almost like I had to kick myself in the rear to snap out of the "same 'ol, same 'ol" routine of just yanking as hard as I could on the halyards, outhaul, and sheets and hoping for decent trim.
Local or Mail Order
Considering that Roger Mac likes to have the lowest price point on the market for 26 foot cruisers, I wouldn't expect the OEM sails to be the best. Having the Doyle name on stock sails is a selling point, but if it's their bargain basement sail, the name on it isn't all that relevant. I've pretty well convinced myself that even though I believe my '85 model 25 had seen limited use over the years that a new main would be a good idea. I got a pretty good tear in the luff during a surprise "gale" that blew up on my home lake in October. Fortunately, I had a spare main that was really bagged out so at least I wasn't stuck at the dock until I pulled my boat Thanksgiving weekend, but I noticed a pretty drastic change in performance. I took my original main to Roger Kerr at Kerr Sailmakers here in Tulsa (Moderators- I'm not spamming for him any more than a recommendation from someone else for Doyle, North, etc.). He's gotten a really good national reputation and seems to do all the repairs for sailors in this area. At any rate, I asked him if he could sew in a patch, he took one look at the material and said it had become so brittle that any repair he made would likely tear it somewhere else the next time it was under severe stress. He put an adhesive patch on it, said "good luck" and absolutely refused to let me pay him. While there, I had him quote me a new main with two reef points, slugs, etc. and it will be a little over a grand with tax. I didn't think to ask him what weight Dacron it is and whether or not it included an insignia. I've found mail order sails from "specialists" for Macs: 6oz. Dacron w/ two reef points in the $750 range, and 5oz. Dacron w/ one reef point for around $425. That low price is tempting to have new, clean, white Dacron on the boat, but I figure you get what you pay for as far as durability and functionality. I guess my quandry is whether to spend the additional $200 to have a "custom" made sail by a local sail maker who will appreciate making repairs or mods later on a sail he built instead of making repairs for someone who was too cheap to consider him in the first place. I also figure it's easier to get service from someone local than in California, Rhode Island, or Hong Kong, especially if the sail isn't perfect right out of the bag. I didn't really get the idea of loose-footed mains until I saw the posts here on it. My first experience with one was on a demo sail of a Hunter 33 a couple of months ago and I didn't quite "get it" at the time. Now it makes sense in getting a better foil shape all the way to the boom.
Considering that Roger Mac likes to have the lowest price point on the market for 26 foot cruisers, I wouldn't expect the OEM sails to be the best. Having the Doyle name on stock sails is a selling point, but if it's their bargain basement sail, the name on it isn't all that relevant. I've pretty well convinced myself that even though I believe my '85 model 25 had seen limited use over the years that a new main would be a good idea. I got a pretty good tear in the luff during a surprise "gale" that blew up on my home lake in October. Fortunately, I had a spare main that was really bagged out so at least I wasn't stuck at the dock until I pulled my boat Thanksgiving weekend, but I noticed a pretty drastic change in performance. I took my original main to Roger Kerr at Kerr Sailmakers here in Tulsa (Moderators- I'm not spamming for him any more than a recommendation from someone else for Doyle, North, etc.). He's gotten a really good national reputation and seems to do all the repairs for sailors in this area. At any rate, I asked him if he could sew in a patch, he took one look at the material and said it had become so brittle that any repair he made would likely tear it somewhere else the next time it was under severe stress. He put an adhesive patch on it, said "good luck" and absolutely refused to let me pay him. While there, I had him quote me a new main with two reef points, slugs, etc. and it will be a little over a grand with tax. I didn't think to ask him what weight Dacron it is and whether or not it included an insignia. I've found mail order sails from "specialists" for Macs: 6oz. Dacron w/ two reef points in the $750 range, and 5oz. Dacron w/ one reef point for around $425. That low price is tempting to have new, clean, white Dacron on the boat, but I figure you get what you pay for as far as durability and functionality. I guess my quandry is whether to spend the additional $200 to have a "custom" made sail by a local sail maker who will appreciate making repairs or mods later on a sail he built instead of making repairs for someone who was too cheap to consider him in the first place. I also figure it's easier to get service from someone local than in California, Rhode Island, or Hong Kong, especially if the sail isn't perfect right out of the bag. I didn't really get the idea of loose-footed mains until I saw the posts here on it. My first experience with one was on a demo sail of a Hunter 33 a couple of months ago and I didn't quite "get it" at the time. Now it makes sense in getting a better foil shape all the way to the boom.
Loose footed
There seems to be a consensus that loose footed saiuls can be shaped better. An mainsail outhaul will help with this shaping. Having a loose footed sail also eliminates bolt rope shrinkage. It is easier to completely remove the sail if that is your desire.
There seems to be a consensus that loose footed saiuls can be shaped better. An mainsail outhaul will help with this shaping. Having a loose footed sail also eliminates bolt rope shrinkage. It is easier to completely remove the sail if that is your desire.
Sail
Lots of good advice in other posts, but I didn't notice any-one talk about full length battens. These can allow your main to gain a few extra square feet and maintain a better shape. Even more money, even more performance.
Lots of good advice in other posts, but I didn't notice any-one talk about full length battens. These can allow your main to gain a few extra square feet and maintain a better shape. Even more money, even more performance.
Battens
I considered four full length battens. I made the decision to go with a mix of batten lengths/types for easier storage and handling(2 + 2 or "powerhead"b). Cost per advantage can also factor in here, whether the extra cost is quantifiable as a performance gain. The question could be asked: do you want that much more sail area (if getting full length battens for a sail cut larger)? Battens are a fascinating subject. Flexibility and batten tension are just two variables.
I considered four full length battens. I made the decision to go with a mix of batten lengths/types for easier storage and handling(2 + 2 or "powerhead"b). Cost per advantage can also factor in here, whether the extra cost is quantifiable as a performance gain. The question could be asked: do you want that much more sail area (if getting full length battens for a sail cut larger)? Battens are a fascinating subject. Flexibility and batten tension are just two variables.
Sail Area
You asked why more sail area? For those days with not a lot of wind!! Reef when you need to, but when the wind is light, add sail. Especially when going to windward. Spinnakers are of no help then so larger Gennys and more main are needed. But then I don't even have a motor on one of my Venture 23's. And rarely ever use them on the other boats. 4 years and haven't added gas to the fuel tank yet. And I just sold the motor that came with one of the other boats as I never used it.
You asked why more sail area? For those days with not a lot of wind!! Reef when you need to, but when the wind is light, add sail. Especially when going to windward. Spinnakers are of no help then so larger Gennys and more main are needed. But then I don't even have a motor on one of my Venture 23's. And rarely ever use them on the other boats. 4 years and haven't added gas to the fuel tank yet. And I just sold the motor that came with one of the other boats as I never used it.
Sail Area
The reason I asked that question, is that what you may need is better sails and peripheral equipment than more sail area close hauled. Just a thought. John S
The reason I asked that question, is that what you may need is better sails and peripheral equipment than more sail area close hauled. Just a thought. John S
Extras
Got a boom vang, that does more for the shape of the main than a traveler, and even if you have a traveler I would recomend you add the vang. I still use the orignal main, but did get a light air 150% that really helps on those light air days. Oh I'm a butt head when it comes to starting the motor. I'd rather take 4 hours sailing in than turn on the engine. Main is set up for jiffy reefing and has 2 sets of reef points (won't turn the motor on to get out of a storm either). I also have a storm jib, and am getting a trysail. When ever I have the time I sail over to Greenbay from Traverse City, so my boat does see open water. I'm towing her down to Fla. this fri. for a week of sailing there. Wanted to go to the Bahammas but don't have a pass port yet so will settle for a trip to the Dry Tortogas. (not even taking an engine with me). Watch for a green VN 23.
Got a boom vang, that does more for the shape of the main than a traveler, and even if you have a traveler I would recomend you add the vang. I still use the orignal main, but did get a light air 150% that really helps on those light air days. Oh I'm a butt head when it comes to starting the motor. I'd rather take 4 hours sailing in than turn on the engine. Main is set up for jiffy reefing and has 2 sets of reef points (won't turn the motor on to get out of a storm either). I also have a storm jib, and am getting a trysail. When ever I have the time I sail over to Greenbay from Traverse City, so my boat does see open water. I'm towing her down to Fla. this fri. for a week of sailing there. Wanted to go to the Bahammas but don't have a pass port yet so will settle for a trip to the Dry Tortogas. (not even taking an engine with me). Watch for a green VN 23.
- Status