Pendant line on 85% jib

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Sep 12, 2005
71
Oday 25 Escondido, CA
Don,

The 85% headsail on my O'day 25 has a wire line about 18" that hooks from the tack of the sail to the base of the headstay. I am taking the sail to a loft for general maintenance and was wondering about switching the pendant to the head of the sail. Will moving the pendant line change the preformance of the sail? A big factor in leaving it alone is that I have a clear view under the sail for traffic. However, if there was a benefit with regards to preformance, I might make the switch.

Thanks,
BnB
 
Sep 25, 2008
544
Bristol 43.3 Perth Amboy
Moving the pendant (pennant ?) to the head of the sail from the tack will lower the sail significantly which will result in less heeling and improve performance.
 
Jun 4, 2004
273
Oday 25 Alameda
jib sheet lead angle

will also change your lead angle resulting in more tension on the foot, less on the leech. can you also change the jib sheet block location to compensate?
 
Sep 12, 2005
71
Oday 25 Escondido, CA
Re: jib sheet lead angle

I have fixed jib leads. I have entertained the thought of a track but $$$. . . It would be nice to have less heel since I mainly fly the 85 in 15+ knots. The boat sails much better when she is flat.
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,003
Hunter 23 Philadelphia
Pulpit

Don't forget that with the sail lower, it will interfere with the bow pulpit and lifelines, and require someone to go forward to lift it over the lifelines when heading up from a beam reach
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I have fixed jib leads. I have entertained the thought of a track but $$$. . . It would be nice to have less heel since I mainly fly the 85 in 15+ knots. The boat sails much better when she is flat.
I would leave the pendant at the bottom. We did that with our Catalina 25 for the visibility. On The Bay that's very important. The 18" won't make much difference on your 85%, which, I'd bet, is pretty narrow at the top of the sail.

While we had tracks on our C25, I didn't move the fairlead position almost ever, maybe once or twice when it was really windy and I wanted to spill some air off the top. With your fixed fairlead position, if your sail sets correctly now, I wouldn't change the pendant.

You could easily try it out and see if it works. If by lowering the sail your leech tension changes and your foot gets baggy, then it may not work.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Boat N Bus: If it were me I would not change the the pendent from the bottom to the top of the sail. It will not change your performance in any way and here is why. I think your boat is a fractional rig but I'm not sure. If it is a fractional rig, the engine of the boat is the mainsail not the jib. Even if the boat is a masthead rig, there will be no change in the performance because the sail itself is too small. In effect it is like a storm sail.

Since we are on this subject, lets say a mate has a bigger boat and/or a larger sail (135 and above) my suggestion would be a bit different. Instead of a stationary wire I would suggest the installation of a jib cunnigham. This is a great sail trim adjustment tool especially if you have a masthead rig. Most sailors do not bother with the jib halyard adjustment. I never did because i always ended up with a mess because my jib halyard was not led back to the cockpit. Even if it was I would not have used it because it is impossable to get small adjustments due to the weight of the sail.

Boats N Bus, I'd just continue with the horse (boat) you rode in on.
 
Oct 3, 2006
1,003
Hunter 23 Philadelphia
Don,
Are you suggesting a "Tack line" similar to an A-spinnaker, lead back to the cockpit, in place of the wire?
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Brian: Nope, on the tack line. What I prefer is a small soft boom vang - Garhauer makes an excellent one, which you can purchase from the ships store here at sailboatowners.com. I think they carry it. If they don't they can order it for you.

That line is led back to the cockpit. How I worked it on my boats was to go to full hoist and then back off a little. How much is a little? I don't know as each boat is different - maybe an inch. From that point on I never messed with the halyard. All adjustments were made with the soft vang.

How important are jib adjustments/ On a masthead rig they are EVERYTHING because the engine is the jib. I can't tell you how many boats I've been on where it appears the fairleads are rusted in place. They have never been moved!! What that means is the adjustment is like the broken clock. It is only right for some point of sail and wind condition and wrong for all others.
 
T

Ted

Pendant choice

Hi BnB

A 85% headsail is usually used in much stronger winds than you are using it in. I would guess that most boats would use that sail in winds over 25 knots true. Generally in those conditions you would see waves comming over the bow and washing the deck. Using the pendant on the tack raises the foot off the deck and allows the waves to wash over the leward rail. If the foot were close to the deck, it would catch the waves and knock you over more than a big gust would.

By dropping the tack to the deck, you are in essence moving the genoa lead aft. Because you don't have adjustable leads, you are not able to move the lead forward to maintain the same trimming lead position as you had when the pendant was in place at the tack. Moving the lead aft will twist the sail which is what you want to do to depower it in heavy air but the 18" drop at the tack is going to put too much twist in your headsail. I would suggest leaving the tack pendant where it is, at the tack and get some adjustable leads.

Ted
 
Sep 12, 2005
71
Oday 25 Escondido, CA
Don et al.: Thanks for weighing in. All good info for my sailing DB, much appreciated. I think that I will continue to ride my horse; a tired girl, but reliable. :) As Stu pointed out, it is very valuable to have that extra vis below the sail while tooling around the Bay. If a bay sailor can't keep clear of a 289 footer, what other choice do I have but to keep a weather eye!
The 85 does 'set' just fine and for my purposes, (Buffet, rum, fishing, etc.) it works well. I do hear what Ted is saying about the sail size relative to wind speed but the centerboard of the 25' isn't the heaviest thing and she heels quickly and steep, which equals spilled beverages!
As far as adding sail adjustment tools/gear. My priority list is as follows:
1) cabin top winch for jib halyard
2) main traveller system
3) genoa cars that give better lead angle to winches
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Boat n Bus: I think I can save you some money on your priority list. I'm hoping your boat is a fractional rig - is it?

Assuming it is fractional, I'd skip the jib halyard winch and here's why. The size of your jib is small and all the jib halyard adjust is draft position and draft depth. Any adjustment advantage is mitaged by the small size of the sail. My advise is to raise the jib to full hoist and forget the halyard.

Genoa cars - same story. The sail is to small. Use what you have, whatever that is. I assume you have some kind of a pin type setup. What do you have?

Main traveler - now that is something I'd consider. If your boat is a fractional rig then the mainsail is the engine. Hopefully, you and the rest of the forum lister know what the traveler adjusts. In the event you don't, there are 4 elements we are dealing with and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. I call them "the 4 elements of sail trim". Those are the only 4 things that the sail trim controls for the main and jib adjust. If I asked a group of sailors to tell me what element the traveler adjust I bet some would tell me "all of the above". Many would tell me twist. The correct answer is ANGLE OF ATTACK and that is the ONLY ELEMENT that the traveler adjusts. The traveler would cure your heeling a drink spilling problem.

If anyone is interested in a further explanation of how the traveler works then just fire away.
 
Sep 12, 2005
71
Oday 25 Escondido, CA
Don: I do not have a fractional rig. Masthead. Other points of clarity: I also have a 110% jib that needs the new genoa cars. Right now they are the pin type that slide on a track bolted to the outer side of the cockpit coaming. However the blocks themselves sit too high and therefore give me a bad lead to the winches. The 85% scallops and I originally thought it was due to halyard tension but have recently discovered that the wire that runs inside the tape from tack to head is longer than the tape itself - hence - I will never be able to get the scallops unless a sailmaker makes a few cuts and stiches (maybe a new swage also? - dunno). Additionally, I think the jib halyard itself still has a little bit of stretch left in it. So, new priority list scratches jib accessories.

OK, traveler. I do know what it does and I feel that would help me the most. Sometimes I get the jib dialed in, 15 true, 19 gusts, I've tricked the booze hounds into hicking, I'm trying to 'get up' to the mark and I just want to spill a little and I don't mean beverage-wise. :)
The other problem with above scenario is that the main is so blown out, its got a perma-beer-gut! Too much belly inspite of my outhaul maxed. Thanks a bunch Don, I am really learning from all this!
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Boat N Bus: OK, on a masthead rig the engine is the jib. Unfortunately, your 110 is a very samll engine. A 110 is more of a storm jib. If you put a 135 on that boat it really would increase your speed and efficiency.

An adjustable fair lead system, like what Garhauer sells, (and this is just my personal opinon) is a must for a masthead rig. If all a mate wants to do is raise the main and roll out the jib and call it sailing (which it is) then they can get away with the pin type setup. If you want performance on a masthead rig you have to be able to adjust the jib. Sailors, as with all humans, will do what is easy and not what is hard and adjusting a pin type system is hard and that is why most fairleads are rusted in place. Again your problem is the size of the jib and an adjustable fairlead system coupled to a 110 is not going to get you very far.

You made an interesting comment regarding coming to a mark and it applies to any boat trying to turn around something. I've seen this a million times - when boats are approaching a mark or turning into a basin, the skipper is fighting to turn the boat and he can't. The problem is the mainsail is acting like a giant rudduer and actually over powering the rudder. The solution is very simple - as the boat approaches the turn the mainsheet/traverler guy merely eases the traveler down a bit or a lot depending on the situation and the boat almost turns itself.
 
Jun 4, 2004
273
Oday 25 Alameda
I agree with getting lead cars when the budget allows. I disagree with the advice for a 135 unless BnB upgrades to roller reefing. Refer to the op's location. I use a 100% headsail on SFBay; same boat with a fin keel. An appropriate amount of canvas except on the mildest days. Install pictures on the link below or BnB can visit the boat in Alameda.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
I'd leave the pendant at the bottom of the sail, since that will give you better visibility as well as make it easier for the sail to clear the pulpit and lifelines.

I'd also highly recommend the garhauer line-controlled genoa car fairleads, as they're pretty good and reasonably priced. I just put them on my boat this past spring. :)

As for your blown out main, if the cloth is in good shape, it might be worth having it recut to give it a few more seasons of usable life.
 
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