We installed a new Jabsco compact toilet about a year ago. About a month ago we noticed that the bowl kept filling up after flushing and pumping the bowl "dry." We correctly diagnosed that the joker valve was not working, so replaced it. Last weekend I noticed the same problem and installed a new joker valve (fortunately we had bought a spare one)and fixed the problem again. It seems very odd that we are on the third joker valve in such a short time. I'm wondering if using mineral oil to lubricate the toilet is detrimental to the rubber. We have also been using Odorlos for treatment. Any thoughts?
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Incorrect diagnosis--it's not the joker valve
The only reason replacing the joker valve has helped temporarily at all is because the slit in a brand new joker valve hasn't had anything go through it to stretch it even a milimeter. Once the toilet has been flushed a few times, it no longer seals completely--and isn't supposed to...the ONLY function of a joker valve is to prevent major "spit ups," it's not supposed to block seepage. More importantly, water is rising INSIDE your boat--water that could either overflow the bowl and sink your boat when no one is aboard...or, if it's coming back from the holding tank, make one hell of a mess! Wouldn't you want to know where that water is coming from...how it's getting TO the joker valve that you don't think is working??? The first question is, is the water rising in the bowl clean or dirty (just flush water or waste water)? Does the water rise quickly, or seep in very slowly? If it seeps very slowly, what kind of path does your head discharge hose tank when leaves the toilet...does it run uphill from the toilet? If it rises quickly, where is the waterline on your boat relative to the toilet bowl? Is water rising in the bowl to the waterline? Do you leave your head intake seacock open all the time? What about any overboard discharge thru-hull for the toilet or the tank? When you've answered those questions, I can tell you where the water is coming from and the right way to fix it. As for pouring mineral (or vegetable) oil down the toilet, it's not hurting anything in the toilet, but it does put an oil slick on the surface in your holding tank, which suffocates the contents and contributes to odor...and it's mostly a waste of mineral oil because it all washes out in a few flushes. It takes all of 10 minutes to lubricate your toilet ONCE for the whole season...by simply opening the top of the pump and putting a healthy squirt of SuperLube (thick teflon grease--the same stuff that was in it when the toilet left the factory-that comes in a tube) into it.
The only reason replacing the joker valve has helped temporarily at all is because the slit in a brand new joker valve hasn't had anything go through it to stretch it even a milimeter. Once the toilet has been flushed a few times, it no longer seals completely--and isn't supposed to...the ONLY function of a joker valve is to prevent major "spit ups," it's not supposed to block seepage. More importantly, water is rising INSIDE your boat--water that could either overflow the bowl and sink your boat when no one is aboard...or, if it's coming back from the holding tank, make one hell of a mess! Wouldn't you want to know where that water is coming from...how it's getting TO the joker valve that you don't think is working??? The first question is, is the water rising in the bowl clean or dirty (just flush water or waste water)? Does the water rise quickly, or seep in very slowly? If it seeps very slowly, what kind of path does your head discharge hose tank when leaves the toilet...does it run uphill from the toilet? If it rises quickly, where is the waterline on your boat relative to the toilet bowl? Is water rising in the bowl to the waterline? Do you leave your head intake seacock open all the time? What about any overboard discharge thru-hull for the toilet or the tank? When you've answered those questions, I can tell you where the water is coming from and the right way to fix it. As for pouring mineral (or vegetable) oil down the toilet, it's not hurting anything in the toilet, but it does put an oil slick on the surface in your holding tank, which suffocates the contents and contributes to odor...and it's mostly a waste of mineral oil because it all washes out in a few flushes. It takes all of 10 minutes to lubricate your toilet ONCE for the whole season...by simply opening the top of the pump and putting a healthy squirt of SuperLube (thick teflon grease--the same stuff that was in it when the toilet left the factory-that comes in a tube) into it.
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Jay Eaton
Me too, and thanks!
I also have the same problem. This did not happen until I re-built the head. We do not use bay water to flush - 1) it is not filtered and could cause clogging over time, and 2) I see no reason to add organisms to the system from the flush water. We have plenty of fresh water aboard to flush the head; so, the seacock stays closed. The back flow is a seapage. We pump the head dry - 5-10 pumps to ensure the line clears to the holding tank. However, some small amount of water, about 1 or 2 cups flows back. I assume the outflow hose runs uphill to the tank; I am not sure how steep the uphill run is. Anyway, thanks to Peggy Hall for the info and questions. I am satisfied that I know what is happening. We have had suggestions from another sailing couple to keep a little water in the bowl when we leave the boat. It equalizes the pressure in the outflow tube. So no back flow and no gasses in the boat.
I also have the same problem. This did not happen until I re-built the head. We do not use bay water to flush - 1) it is not filtered and could cause clogging over time, and 2) I see no reason to add organisms to the system from the flush water. We have plenty of fresh water aboard to flush the head; so, the seacock stays closed. The back flow is a seapage. We pump the head dry - 5-10 pumps to ensure the line clears to the holding tank. However, some small amount of water, about 1 or 2 cups flows back. I assume the outflow hose runs uphill to the tank; I am not sure how steep the uphill run is. Anyway, thanks to Peggy Hall for the info and questions. I am satisfied that I know what is happening. We have had suggestions from another sailing couple to keep a little water in the bowl when we leave the boat. It equalizes the pressure in the outflow tube. So no back flow and no gasses in the boat.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
You only "assume" the hose runs uphill??
You've never looked at your plumbing to see where it goes...whether any hose clamps in it are tight...any tight bends in which a kink may have developed...leaks...??? What about the plumbing coming out of the holding tank to the deck fitting and to any overboard pump and thru-hull? The tank vent??? You're satisfied that you know where the water is coming from...but DO you know for certain? What if you're wrong--and it's really water from OUTside the boat (unlikely if you don't have the ability to the dump the tank and you keep the intake seacock closed, but I'm trying to make a point here!)? If your problem didn't occur until you rebuilt the toilet, it's a fair guess that you either didn't put something back quite right--that something isn't seated or is in backward--or you got a defective joker valve in the kit. Although the joker valve won't prevent slow seepage, unless it's so worn that the slit is an open mouth, it should prevent any gasses from the holding tank unless your vent is blocked, pressurizing the tank. And btw...you ARE using a cup to put flush water in the toilet--please tell me you haven't connected your toilet to your fresh water system?
You've never looked at your plumbing to see where it goes...whether any hose clamps in it are tight...any tight bends in which a kink may have developed...leaks...??? What about the plumbing coming out of the holding tank to the deck fitting and to any overboard pump and thru-hull? The tank vent??? You're satisfied that you know where the water is coming from...but DO you know for certain? What if you're wrong--and it's really water from OUTside the boat (unlikely if you don't have the ability to the dump the tank and you keep the intake seacock closed, but I'm trying to make a point here!)? If your problem didn't occur until you rebuilt the toilet, it's a fair guess that you either didn't put something back quite right--that something isn't seated or is in backward--or you got a defective joker valve in the kit. Although the joker valve won't prevent slow seepage, unless it's so worn that the slit is an open mouth, it should prevent any gasses from the holding tank unless your vent is blocked, pressurizing the tank. And btw...you ARE using a cup to put flush water in the toilet--please tell me you haven't connected your toilet to your fresh water system?
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Jay Eaton
Limited Assumptions
The vents and hoses are secure and straight; in fact my system has 2 vents for enough air flow and I keep them clean. The pump out fitting and hoses are good, no leaks, pump outs work good. All visible piping appears good and properly secure. No visible signs of leakage around the holding tank or in the bilges. The back flow problem did not occur last year, and I have made no changes in any piping, visible or otherwise; the boat is only 2 years old. The shower head is the convenient source of fresh water for flushing. On the other hand, your point about a possible bad joker valve is well taken; we'll check that out. Thanks.
The vents and hoses are secure and straight; in fact my system has 2 vents for enough air flow and I keep them clean. The pump out fitting and hoses are good, no leaks, pump outs work good. All visible piping appears good and properly secure. No visible signs of leakage around the holding tank or in the bilges. The back flow problem did not occur last year, and I have made no changes in any piping, visible or otherwise; the boat is only 2 years old. The shower head is the convenient source of fresh water for flushing. On the other hand, your point about a possible bad joker valve is well taken; we'll check that out. Thanks.
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Tom Long
I admit it!
Peggy - I was totally in left field with the joker valve theory! However, I will answer your questions with the goal of solving this problem once and for all. First, the water in the bowl rises fairly quickly, and is definitely waste water from the tank (when the tank is pumped out, no water enters the bowl). Second, the discharge hose from the toilet runs uphill to the top of the holding tank just a couple feet away. The water line is about even with the bottom of the bowl. Yes, we normally leave the intake and discharge seacocks open. The tank discharge has a diaphragm pump which discharges overboard, and there is no diverter valve installed. Thanks for your valuable insight, and I hope you can give us some clues to arrive at a fix. Thanks.
Peggy - I was totally in left field with the joker valve theory! However, I will answer your questions with the goal of solving this problem once and for all. First, the water in the bowl rises fairly quickly, and is definitely waste water from the tank (when the tank is pumped out, no water enters the bowl). Second, the discharge hose from the toilet runs uphill to the top of the holding tank just a couple feet away. The water line is about even with the bottom of the bowl. Yes, we normally leave the intake and discharge seacocks open. The tank discharge has a diaphragm pump which discharges overboard, and there is no diverter valve installed. Thanks for your valuable insight, and I hope you can give us some clues to arrive at a fix. Thanks.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
When was the last time you checked...
your tank vent thru-hulls? From your description of the problem, whether the joker valve is bad or not, the ONLY thing that could send flush water back toward the toilet AFTER you rebuilt, if it didn't happend before you rebuilt--is backpressure. Without any backpressure from the tank, it shouldn't be necessary to "equalize" any pressure because there shouldn't be any pressure to equalize. Ergo, I suspect clogged tank vents.
your tank vent thru-hulls? From your description of the problem, whether the joker valve is bad or not, the ONLY thing that could send flush water back toward the toilet AFTER you rebuilt, if it didn't happend before you rebuilt--is backpressure. Without any backpressure from the tank, it shouldn't be necessary to "equalize" any pressure because there shouldn't be any pressure to equalize. Ergo, I suspect clogged tank vents.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Bingo!
" Yes, we normally leave the intake and discharge seacocks open." That's the cause of your problem. If it's definitely backflow from the holding tank, I'm sure you'll find that the tank is filling up with seawater and forcing tank contents back toward the toilet. That thru-hull should NEVER be open except when dumping the toilet--which you cannot legally do ANYWHERE in the Chesapeake Bay anyway. You don't even have a y-valve in the head discharge line to wire tie in the pumpout position so you can bluff the gendarmes into believing that you never do except when you take the boat out to sea--a trip of about 200 miles, btw. I think you'll find that it only happens after you've been out sailing. And that your holding tank seems to fill up a lot faster than it should. Why? Because water is being forced up the open thru-hull into the tank by the motion of the boat through the water while you're underway...overflowing the tank and being pushed back into the bowl. It doesn't do it right after the tank has been pumped out (dumped?) because the toilet discharge line enters the tank at the top of it...contents have to rise in it to overflow the tank to send it back to the bowl. It's only rising to the waterline on the boat. Close that seacock and keep it closed, and I THINK that will solve your problem.
" Yes, we normally leave the intake and discharge seacocks open." That's the cause of your problem. If it's definitely backflow from the holding tank, I'm sure you'll find that the tank is filling up with seawater and forcing tank contents back toward the toilet. That thru-hull should NEVER be open except when dumping the toilet--which you cannot legally do ANYWHERE in the Chesapeake Bay anyway. You don't even have a y-valve in the head discharge line to wire tie in the pumpout position so you can bluff the gendarmes into believing that you never do except when you take the boat out to sea--a trip of about 200 miles, btw. I think you'll find that it only happens after you've been out sailing. And that your holding tank seems to fill up a lot faster than it should. Why? Because water is being forced up the open thru-hull into the tank by the motion of the boat through the water while you're underway...overflowing the tank and being pushed back into the bowl. It doesn't do it right after the tank has been pumped out (dumped?) because the toilet discharge line enters the tank at the top of it...contents have to rise in it to overflow the tank to send it back to the bowl. It's only rising to the waterline on the boat. Close that seacock and keep it closed, and I THINK that will solve your problem.
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