I've started the laborious task of removing the old paint from the inside of my Widgeon. What would be the best way to do it and what paint should I use? I'm wanting to just go with white on the inside. The previous paint (God only knows what that man used) is chipping terribly and looks pretty crappy so I'd like to start restoring this boat any hints and tips would be well welcomed!
Painting a Widgeon
- Thread starter Tyler R
- Start date
The yellow foam/gel stuff is a paint remover I was trying in a small section of the boat. It'll be a lot of work But when it's done she'll be lookin' good. Haha
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I don't know what to use for remover, but I do seem to recall that the inside of the hull on my WIDGEON was coated (from the Factory) wit ha buff color substance that was like a cross between gel-coat and trunk liner (truck bed liner??). It some areas it seemed sort-of "rubber-like" and did provide a bit of non-skid to the bottom of the inside of the hull.
Makes me think of the coating on the underside of the deck on our old 1970 CAL 21, it was like a gel-coat paste.... type of paint. It would tend to peel and chip after many years, but resist all attempts at removal! When it wanted to come off , it would chip...... but it never "wanted" to come off easily by human effort. Several other old CAL owners have reported the same experience.
PS: those seats will really look good after a little (OK, maybe a lot?) of work with some sandpaper and wood bleach (try teak cleaner?) then some stain and varnish. Really brings out the beauty (that was one of the projects that I needed to tackle the first winter after I bought my Widgeon. Seats had been painted by a previous owner, maybe the one before the owner that sold me the boat. They were peeling pretty good on top).
Makes me think of the coating on the underside of the deck on our old 1970 CAL 21, it was like a gel-coat paste.... type of paint. It would tend to peel and chip after many years, but resist all attempts at removal! When it wanted to come off , it would chip...... but it never "wanted" to come off easily by human effort. Several other old CAL owners have reported the same experience.
PS: those seats will really look good after a little (OK, maybe a lot?) of work with some sandpaper and wood bleach (try teak cleaner?) then some stain and varnish. Really brings out the beauty (that was one of the projects that I needed to tackle the first winter after I bought my Widgeon. Seats had been painted by a previous owner, maybe the one before the owner that sold me the boat. They were peeling pretty good on top).
Yeah the paint has been very frustrating to try and remove. This is probably a stupid question but would I need to remove all layers or just get is where it is fairly even, or would that look shabby? I'll probably start the seats today, I've got all the chipped paint smoothed down and the boat has been washed of all the dirt and grime... Thankfully the hull is in pretty good condition so I don't think I'll really need to re-paint that.
Tyler, it's up to you. How much should you remove? How good do you want it to look? I'm too damn perfectionistic for my own good, so I would take it down to fiberglass or gelcoat, and then start over from there. That way, I'd know it was done right, would look better, and would last longer.
Ever see someone just scrape at house paint, to get the obvious loose stuff off, and then in a few years have the old paint underneath the new paint start flaking off, so that they need to go at the whole house with a heat gun and scraper all the way back down to the wood?
Yeah.
Ever see someone just scrape at house paint, to get the obvious loose stuff off, and then in a few years have the old paint underneath the new paint start flaking off, so that they need to go at the whole house with a heat gun and scraper all the way back down to the wood?
Yeah.
Oo... That sounds nasty... I think I'll just get it down to the fiberglass or gel coat. I suppose I better start working now. It's going to be a long process. Haha
Our Commodore sang the praises of Tough2 Strip stripper last year when he re-did his bottom paint. Said he could just smear it on with his hands. It's expensive, but maybe it'll work for you too… http://www.amazon.com/Back-to-Nature-Tough-2-Strip/dp/B003A1JSDQ
Ouch, that'd put a dent in my wallet. Haha I'll figure something out with the paint removal. How about those seats, how much wood stain should I buy and what kind would be the best?
Well, I'm not sure about Widgeons, but I'm guessing that's mahogany under the paint. Although I learned everything from my Grandfather, and I do most boat things thinking of him, kinda in tribute, we did have a major disagreement. He always liked red stained mahogany, whereas I like natural mahogany - under sufficient marine varnish, of course. So, I don't believe in stain on boats.
But for varnish, I do believe in 8-10 coats of marine varnish, such as Interlux Schooner, Pettit Flagship, Epifanes Clear Varnish, or Le Tonkinois Number One.
While it has held up well, the Pettit burned me once - the color was different between 2 different quarts, and I can see the difference between those two pieces on the boat. Epifanes was ok going on, but I haven't seen how it holds up outside. Most of the items varnished with Epifanes went with the boat when I sold it. But so far, I find the easiest varnish to apply is Le Tonkinois, because it's oil and resin, no solvents. It's so much easier to maintain a wet edge. With the Pettit, I was constantly having to thin it. However, I'm not sure how well Le Tonks will hold up. I left my tiller out with no cover this past season, and I could see the damage in the top layer. Then again, for proper varnish, you need to sand and add a coat or two every season. Varnish is like an onion with very thin layers, which wear down. So, you keep it up every season so it lasts as long as possible.
Some folks put down 2 coats of epoxy, then varnish. The epoxy will seal the wood and prevent wood movement due to changing moisture levels. Others don't like that, because the epoxy darkens the wood a bit. And the epoxy makes the surface more brittle with respect to impacts. But the varnish does stick well to it, and last longer.
There are other coatings out there, like 2 part polyurethane varnishes such as Interlux Perfection, but it's very hard stuff, not as easy to repair, and I think I'd trust it more on new wood, as opposed to older wood. There is also Coelan, which is a very expensive 2 part coating that is supposed to have something like 600% elongation characteristics, so it moves with wood through moisture cycles. I have never used it on wood, which is what it was developed for, but I have friends who have used it for nylon fabric kayak skins.
There is also Cetol, which is like a translucent paint, with very thin layers. It doesn't fill the grain at all, unlike sufficient coats of varnish. It's supposed to be very difficult to get off when it finally fails, but a coat per year should last several years before getting dark and needing stripping. Cetol Marine Natural Teak is definitely very orange, not appropriate for mahogany, IMO. I think I saw pics from someone once which indicate Marine Light would be a better color for mahogany. The Clear is definitely clear, and doesn't have any of the amber color of varnish. And, as far as I'm concerned, wood needs the amber color of varnish.
There are also many kinds of teak oil, including simple Watco, Deks Olje, and Semco. This stuff is easy to apply, just wipe on with a rag, but needs constant maintenance reapplications. I've heard good things about Semco. I use Watco on a wood kayak paddle, usually 4 coats, but then need to apply more several times a season.
But for varnish, I do believe in 8-10 coats of marine varnish, such as Interlux Schooner, Pettit Flagship, Epifanes Clear Varnish, or Le Tonkinois Number One.
While it has held up well, the Pettit burned me once - the color was different between 2 different quarts, and I can see the difference between those two pieces on the boat. Epifanes was ok going on, but I haven't seen how it holds up outside. Most of the items varnished with Epifanes went with the boat when I sold it. But so far, I find the easiest varnish to apply is Le Tonkinois, because it's oil and resin, no solvents. It's so much easier to maintain a wet edge. With the Pettit, I was constantly having to thin it. However, I'm not sure how well Le Tonks will hold up. I left my tiller out with no cover this past season, and I could see the damage in the top layer. Then again, for proper varnish, you need to sand and add a coat or two every season. Varnish is like an onion with very thin layers, which wear down. So, you keep it up every season so it lasts as long as possible.
Some folks put down 2 coats of epoxy, then varnish. The epoxy will seal the wood and prevent wood movement due to changing moisture levels. Others don't like that, because the epoxy darkens the wood a bit. And the epoxy makes the surface more brittle with respect to impacts. But the varnish does stick well to it, and last longer.
There are other coatings out there, like 2 part polyurethane varnishes such as Interlux Perfection, but it's very hard stuff, not as easy to repair, and I think I'd trust it more on new wood, as opposed to older wood. There is also Coelan, which is a very expensive 2 part coating that is supposed to have something like 600% elongation characteristics, so it moves with wood through moisture cycles. I have never used it on wood, which is what it was developed for, but I have friends who have used it for nylon fabric kayak skins.
There is also Cetol, which is like a translucent paint, with very thin layers. It doesn't fill the grain at all, unlike sufficient coats of varnish. It's supposed to be very difficult to get off when it finally fails, but a coat per year should last several years before getting dark and needing stripping. Cetol Marine Natural Teak is definitely very orange, not appropriate for mahogany, IMO. I think I saw pics from someone once which indicate Marine Light would be a better color for mahogany. The Clear is definitely clear, and doesn't have any of the amber color of varnish. And, as far as I'm concerned, wood needs the amber color of varnish.
There are also many kinds of teak oil, including simple Watco, Deks Olje, and Semco. This stuff is easy to apply, just wipe on with a rag, but needs constant maintenance reapplications. I've heard good things about Semco. I use Watco on a wood kayak paddle, usually 4 coats, but then need to apply more several times a season.
That's a lot to choose from. Tomorrow I'm going to my locale sailing goods store (Yes there is one in Kansas) and I'll see what they have there otherwise I'll order online, plus I need to pick up some new lines and I have a few questions on the Widgeon rigging and lines.
Tyler, I think you will do better ordering rope online. (And maybe varnish, too.) A local boating store is likely to have only New England Sta-set rope, which is ok for sheets, but unacceptable for halyards.
I can make recommendations if you need them, including budget level or higher lever stuff for running rigging.
I can make recommendations if you need them, including budget level or higher lever stuff for running rigging.
That would be greatly appreciated. This project will be a lot of work but she'll look pretty in the end!
I just got back from Kansas City Sailing (the locale sailing store) and I have to say I was very disappointed with their products and staff. They were very rude (one member even walked away and said he had more important matters at hand when I asked for help) the lady that helped me was very nice and she did try her best but couldn't answer any of my questions. She kept trying to relate my Widgeon to a Sunfish which as far as my knowledge extends have no correlation (one being sloop and the other cat). I was mainly looking for the line to control the main sails port to starboard position and she kept trying to sell me 30'. Is that the correct length or completely wrong? I believe I fully understand how to set up the jib and I have the main sail pretty well down but I'm not sure how to rig the main to move from port to starboard. Any pictures or diagrams would be great.
Budget line selections for Tyler
Tyler, I have no idea what lengths you'll need for that Widget. Sunbird is the master of rigging info and specs like that.
For budget line selections, I would probably use 1/4" New England Ropes VPC. http://www.teufelberger.com/en/products/marine/new-england-ropes/club-level-racing/vpc.html It's a blended core line that gives less stretch, at a budget price compared to high-tech Dyneema, Spectra, or Vectran cored lines. But far better than double braid polyester, which stretches too much. I often buy line from Annapolis Performance Sailing, www.apsltd.com Their prices are moderate. Not the cheapest, but not outrageously expensive (like West Marine's prices.) APS can also splice your shackles to your halyards, which can look nicer, or you could use a halyard hitch http://www.animatedknots.com/halyar...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com to tie the halyard to your shackle. You could probably use VPC for outhaul, Cunningham/downhaul if fitted, and vang, though it does run a bit stiff, so I wouldn't use it for sheets.
For your sheets (to trim main and jib port and starboard as you say) I think you can get by just fine with a double braid polyester. New England Ropes Sta-set is often used for this, but I think there is a less expensive option. You can get Novabraid XLE double braid polyester from SailCare at very, very reasonable prices: http://www.sailcare.com/ropeshop.shtml I think with a small boat like a Widgeon, you could use 5/16" for jib and main sheets. Thicker diameters are heavier, and may not run as quickly through mainsheet blocks, but they do feel nicer in the hand. Since you generally should have the mainsheet in your hand all the time, especially when it's windy, I often go up to 3/8" for the mainsheet. Because line weight can adversely affect headsail shape in light wind (especially genoas) I sometimes go down to 1/4" for the jib sheet. Then again, I am using high tech lines for my smaller boat.
I hope this gets you going ok.
Tyler, I have no idea what lengths you'll need for that Widget. Sunbird is the master of rigging info and specs like that.
For budget line selections, I would probably use 1/4" New England Ropes VPC. http://www.teufelberger.com/en/products/marine/new-england-ropes/club-level-racing/vpc.html It's a blended core line that gives less stretch, at a budget price compared to high-tech Dyneema, Spectra, or Vectran cored lines. But far better than double braid polyester, which stretches too much. I often buy line from Annapolis Performance Sailing, www.apsltd.com Their prices are moderate. Not the cheapest, but not outrageously expensive (like West Marine's prices.) APS can also splice your shackles to your halyards, which can look nicer, or you could use a halyard hitch http://www.animatedknots.com/halyar...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com to tie the halyard to your shackle. You could probably use VPC for outhaul, Cunningham/downhaul if fitted, and vang, though it does run a bit stiff, so I wouldn't use it for sheets.
For your sheets (to trim main and jib port and starboard as you say) I think you can get by just fine with a double braid polyester. New England Ropes Sta-set is often used for this, but I think there is a less expensive option. You can get Novabraid XLE double braid polyester from SailCare at very, very reasonable prices: http://www.sailcare.com/ropeshop.shtml I think with a small boat like a Widgeon, you could use 5/16" for jib and main sheets. Thicker diameters are heavier, and may not run as quickly through mainsheet blocks, but they do feel nicer in the hand. Since you generally should have the mainsheet in your hand all the time, especially when it's windy, I often go up to 3/8" for the mainsheet. Because line weight can adversely affect headsail shape in light wind (especially genoas) I sometimes go down to 1/4" for the jib sheet. Then again, I am using high tech lines for my smaller boat.
I hope this gets you going ok.
I used Interlux Mahagony Filler-stain when I redid the seats on my WIDGEON. It comes in a pint can and you do need to thin it in use (instructions ar on can or their web site). I barely made a dent in the contents of hte can...... maybe used a 1/2 cup, probably more like a 1/4 cup. I used one coat of stain, brush on with hte grain and wipe off across the grain to get the filler into the grain. Allow to dry, then apply 4-6 coats of a good marine varnish, sanding acording to directions between coats.
I then would usually sand and apply 1-2 coats each spring to maintain the finish.
I left the undersides of the seats painted, it was easier to maintain and the paint on hte undersides was actually still in decent condition when I bought the boat, only the tops were peeling. From above you wouldn't really see th painted parts of the seats on my boat, but the bright varnished tops looked great!
I then would usually sand and apply 1-2 coats each spring to maintain the finish.
I left the undersides of the seats painted, it was easier to maintain and the paint on hte undersides was actually still in decent condition when I bought the boat, only the tops were peeling. From above you wouldn't really see th painted parts of the seats on my boat, but the bright varnished tops looked great!
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Ask and you shall receive!
By the way, I'd say New England Ropes (or any other brand) standard double-braid polyester line is fine for halyards on a Widgeon!! That was what I used and it worked fine, she isn't a racing boat so the minor amount of stretch in Sta-Set will never be noticed.
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I've seen that diagram before with the boom rigging but my boom looks different than in diagram and different from other Widgeons. It only has one eyelet on the top rather than too and bottom.
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Well, that isn't a stock Widgeon boom.
Widgeon boom is 8'6" long and made from about 1 1/2" round tube. I am not at my computer right now but can send you the specs in the next day or so.
Widgeon boom is 8'6" long and made from about 1 1/2" round tube. I am not at my computer right now but can send you the specs in the next day or so.
I believe that this one is up and around that size. It is a bit different, I'll try and upload a few more photos.