I just removed the three rings of packing on my Catalina 30. I do this almost every year and find it difficult. I have a removal tool which I don't care for and use a screw, vise grip, and hammer, but after a while end up using a small screw driver to pry them out. It's a tight space to work in. I want to replace the teflon impregnated packing (3/16") with the paste kit I saw (GFO?). However, will it be even more difficult to remove when the time comes to change it? Will this new type of packing really be dripless? Thanks in advance for any help.
Packing questions
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Packing
Installed one of those packless shaft seal myself. Took about half a day. No need to replace packing and no drip ever. I have a CS30 so space is worst than your C30. My engine is under the companionway. http://pyiinc.com/index.php?section=pss_shaft_seal&action=main&sn=1
Installed one of those packless shaft seal myself. Took about half a day. No need to replace packing and no drip ever. I have a CS30 so space is worst than your C30. My engine is under the companionway. http://pyiinc.com/index.php?section=pss_shaft_seal&action=main&sn=1
GFO is permanent
GFO is braided teflon .... one of the most stable chemical compounds on the earth - not attacked by biologicals, most chemicals, etc. Install it, let it leak a few drips per minute when running for about 5-6 hours, then tighten down until the dripping stops .... then test the surface of the stuffing box to see if its warm when the shaft is spinning at WOT (max rpm) ... if cool to very slightly warm then its perfect. Recheck/readjust in one month. Just like ANY shafting, you should remove the shaft and visually inspect for surface scaring, galling, etc. ... about every 5 years. If scared etc, take it to a machinist and have it 'dressed'.
GFO is braided teflon .... one of the most stable chemical compounds on the earth - not attacked by biologicals, most chemicals, etc. Install it, let it leak a few drips per minute when running for about 5-6 hours, then tighten down until the dripping stops .... then test the surface of the stuffing box to see if its warm when the shaft is spinning at WOT (max rpm) ... if cool to very slightly warm then its perfect. Recheck/readjust in one month. Just like ANY shafting, you should remove the shaft and visually inspect for surface scaring, galling, etc. ... about every 5 years. If scared etc, take it to a machinist and have it 'dressed'.
don't confuse GFO with the paste
GFO is a fiber shaft packing very similar to regular packing but different material. I put some in over two years ago and haven't adjusted it since. It works great for me. No messing around with a paste. Sometimes I might have a teaspoon of water dripping through in several hours of motoring and the box is always cool to the touch.
GFO is a fiber shaft packing very similar to regular packing but different material. I put some in over two years ago and haven't adjusted it since. It works great for me. No messing around with a paste. Sometimes I might have a teaspoon of water dripping through in several hours of motoring and the box is always cool to the touch.
I may be wrong but ..
I believe I bought some of the "dripless" packing stuff that has the consistency of ketchup/putty. Whe I last replaced the packing I used the GFO packing mentioned in this thread and got the other as an afterthought/backup. I read the instructions though and it said that you would use maybe only one less strand of regular packing and the putty would go in the middle. Therefore when you next clean and replace the stuffing box (this product boasts 10 years, I say 5 years is not too soon to recheck) in that oh so akward and painful position you will largerly be getting the teflon coated strands of the more conventional packing out with your drwall screw or get a used toothbrush and rub the gland/packing nut/shaft with a thinner like acetone and really get high. And yes, the so called "dripless" paste/putty packing is not made by GFO. GFO claims that their product provides a "virtually dripless shaft packing" and I generally agree with that claim. I got the putty version "dripless" packing on the web somewhere like defender.com or even WM. The point is that with the "dripless" paste/putty packing you still need to use flax/fiber rings of conventional stuffing as well. Link below is an article on stuffing box replacement that I found helpful from BoatUS.
I believe I bought some of the "dripless" packing stuff that has the consistency of ketchup/putty. Whe I last replaced the packing I used the GFO packing mentioned in this thread and got the other as an afterthought/backup. I read the instructions though and it said that you would use maybe only one less strand of regular packing and the putty would go in the middle. Therefore when you next clean and replace the stuffing box (this product boasts 10 years, I say 5 years is not too soon to recheck) in that oh so akward and painful position you will largerly be getting the teflon coated strands of the more conventional packing out with your drwall screw or get a used toothbrush and rub the gland/packing nut/shaft with a thinner like acetone and really get high. And yes, the so called "dripless" paste/putty packing is not made by GFO. GFO claims that their product provides a "virtually dripless shaft packing" and I generally agree with that claim. I got the putty version "dripless" packing on the web somewhere like defender.com or even WM. The point is that with the "dripless" paste/putty packing you still need to use flax/fiber rings of conventional stuffing as well. Link below is an article on stuffing box replacement that I found helpful from BoatUS.
Dripless packing
There is no such thing as dripless packing, just the amount of drips. All packing material leaks because water is needed to cool the shaft or else burned shaft. Well unless there is no packing material at all. In this case PSS which has no packing material at all. Just a carbon graphite fiber surface against a highly polished SS rotor face. We've been using oil seals and o-rings for years because they were cooled by the liquid (water) and held tight against the moving parts. BTW I don't own PSS shares.
There is no such thing as dripless packing, just the amount of drips. All packing material leaks because water is needed to cool the shaft or else burned shaft. Well unless there is no packing material at all. In this case PSS which has no packing material at all. Just a carbon graphite fiber surface against a highly polished SS rotor face. We've been using oil seals and o-rings for years because they were cooled by the liquid (water) and held tight against the moving parts. BTW I don't own PSS shares.
easier access tip
For easier access, try removing the door just above the drive shaft. remove the door frame too. Mine is a 1987 C30 and I found the access a lot easier with the whole assembly out of the way. I installed the teflon impregnated packing and had a dry bilge. At least after I discovered the water in the bilge was drinking water. good luck. Ken
For easier access, try removing the door just above the drive shaft. remove the door frame too. Mine is a 1987 C30 and I found the access a lot easier with the whole assembly out of the way. I installed the teflon impregnated packing and had a dry bilge. At least after I discovered the water in the bilge was drinking water. good luck. Ken
Teflon Flax - it doesn't get any better Forget PSS
Teflon flax for about ten becks will last ten years. The dripless PSS junk costs big bucks, requires boat hauling and shaft coupling removal, has a bad track record and may end up sinking your vessel when it fails. It's amazing anyone would spend money on that trash
Teflon flax for about ten becks will last ten years. The dripless PSS junk costs big bucks, requires boat hauling and shaft coupling removal, has a bad track record and may end up sinking your vessel when it fails. It's amazing anyone would spend money on that trash
Maine Sail (Rod C?)I was able to get mine dripless
Though the GFO packing is not designed to be guaranteed to always be 100% drip free, I was able to get mine "virtually" drip free after one or two adjustments at the begining of the season. I too was concerned about the stuffing box getting too hot, but I was able to adjust the gland just enough to stop the dripping completely (even when motoring) and where I was still able to put my hand on the gland and hold it. It was a bit warm but not too hot. Maybe I was just lucky, but I was able to achieve the same with a friends C320. I have had the GFO on my boat going on 4-5 years now & I have backed out my gland just to check my shaft and there was no signs of scoring whatsoever. I humbly disagree with Alex when he says "All packing material leaks because water is needed to cool the shaft or else burned shaft." I am pretty sure shafts never get "burned" . What happens is that the traditional wax flax cannot handle excessive heat. This is how it goes from what I understand, traditional wax flax stuffing, if you didn't allow the water to drip the wax will melt a little. That causes the traditional wax flax to get smaller in the gland, thus it will drip more causing you to have to take a few more turns on the gland to keep it from dripping, which will heat up the traditional wax packing more. From there you have a viscous cycle until you have no more wax in the "Flax" packing rope and all you are doing is tightening it down on the shaft. At this point the "waxless flax" is now typically filled with silt and that in combination with overcompressing the gland causes the shaft to score and more leaks to occur. The Gore GFO packing completely eliminates that. From what I understand the reason it works is that the GFO material is PTFE fibers and specially treated with finely ground particles of graphite to increase thermal conductivity which makes it have very superior heat transfer capabilities and excellent lubricity. Even if the packing gland got really hot the special Gore PTFE impregnated Graphite would never leave the packing material. Now I know, no one would ever want the packing gland to get hot but I believe that unless you have wax flax its not going to hurt anything. Think about it, there are temperatures on the engine that are VERY hot only a foot or two away from the packing gland. The packing gland is made of bronze and the shaft is made of bronze or SS. Either getting moderately warm isn't going to hurt a thing. Its the loss of wax in the traditional packing thats a problem and that doesn't happen with GFO PTFE/Graphite. I bet you could put a blow torch on the GFO packing and nothing would happen to the material (PTFE is Teflon and the GFO specs say it can take up to 550 deg F) we all know if we try that with wax flax it would be dripping in 2 seconds. So if you can adjust the Gore PTFE Flax packing to just where it stops leaking underway and the packing gland gets moderately warm but not hot then I tend to believe you are fine. Its been fine for me for 5 years. I would never do it with wax flax though. I think the key to getting the GFO to be "virtually" drip free is making sure installation is done well. Staggering the cuts, making the cuts at 45 deg angles and not tightening it down too hard right away. I read that that when its first installed its best to to run it allowing a some real water leakage during the first few hour of operation & that will result in a better packing job over a longer period of time. It seems to have worked for me. Now back to Johns original question . Like others have said The Teflon "goop" stuff is different from the Gore packing. What the green Teflon "goop" is supposed to do is replenish and replace the lost wax in traditional packing. I have never used it though You can read the link below for little more info about the GORE flax product and its properties. How do I know all this. Well I too used to have a PSS mechanical shaft seal that I was fairly happy with on my last boat. I was going to put another one in my "new" C36 when I ran across the GFO packing that I was going to use temporarily. After using one season and researching I don't think I will ever use anything else. No reason to, plus its fool proof and totally safe.
Though the GFO packing is not designed to be guaranteed to always be 100% drip free, I was able to get mine "virtually" drip free after one or two adjustments at the begining of the season. I too was concerned about the stuffing box getting too hot, but I was able to adjust the gland just enough to stop the dripping completely (even when motoring) and where I was still able to put my hand on the gland and hold it. It was a bit warm but not too hot. Maybe I was just lucky, but I was able to achieve the same with a friends C320. I have had the GFO on my boat going on 4-5 years now & I have backed out my gland just to check my shaft and there was no signs of scoring whatsoever. I humbly disagree with Alex when he says "All packing material leaks because water is needed to cool the shaft or else burned shaft." I am pretty sure shafts never get "burned" . What happens is that the traditional wax flax cannot handle excessive heat. This is how it goes from what I understand, traditional wax flax stuffing, if you didn't allow the water to drip the wax will melt a little. That causes the traditional wax flax to get smaller in the gland, thus it will drip more causing you to have to take a few more turns on the gland to keep it from dripping, which will heat up the traditional wax packing more. From there you have a viscous cycle until you have no more wax in the "Flax" packing rope and all you are doing is tightening it down on the shaft. At this point the "waxless flax" is now typically filled with silt and that in combination with overcompressing the gland causes the shaft to score and more leaks to occur. The Gore GFO packing completely eliminates that. From what I understand the reason it works is that the GFO material is PTFE fibers and specially treated with finely ground particles of graphite to increase thermal conductivity which makes it have very superior heat transfer capabilities and excellent lubricity. Even if the packing gland got really hot the special Gore PTFE impregnated Graphite would never leave the packing material. Now I know, no one would ever want the packing gland to get hot but I believe that unless you have wax flax its not going to hurt anything. Think about it, there are temperatures on the engine that are VERY hot only a foot or two away from the packing gland. The packing gland is made of bronze and the shaft is made of bronze or SS. Either getting moderately warm isn't going to hurt a thing. Its the loss of wax in the traditional packing thats a problem and that doesn't happen with GFO PTFE/Graphite. I bet you could put a blow torch on the GFO packing and nothing would happen to the material (PTFE is Teflon and the GFO specs say it can take up to 550 deg F) we all know if we try that with wax flax it would be dripping in 2 seconds. So if you can adjust the Gore PTFE Flax packing to just where it stops leaking underway and the packing gland gets moderately warm but not hot then I tend to believe you are fine. Its been fine for me for 5 years. I would never do it with wax flax though. I think the key to getting the GFO to be "virtually" drip free is making sure installation is done well. Staggering the cuts, making the cuts at 45 deg angles and not tightening it down too hard right away. I read that that when its first installed its best to to run it allowing a some real water leakage during the first few hour of operation & that will result in a better packing job over a longer period of time. It seems to have worked for me. Now back to Johns original question . Like others have said The Teflon "goop" stuff is different from the Gore packing. What the green Teflon "goop" is supposed to do is replenish and replace the lost wax in traditional packing. I have never used it though You can read the link below for little more info about the GORE flax product and its properties. How do I know all this. Well I too used to have a PSS mechanical shaft seal that I was fairly happy with on my last boat. I was going to put another one in my "new" C36 when I ran across the GFO packing that I was going to use temporarily. After using one season and researching I don't think I will ever use anything else. No reason to, plus its fool proof and totally safe.
PSS = junk?
Daryl, Could you elaborate on your statement, and provide some documentation of boats that have sunk because of the PSS system? I am very close to buying one for our boat, and I have searched the internet to see if the system is reliable, and I have not found what you are describing?? -- Scott
Daryl, Could you elaborate on your statement, and provide some documentation of boats that have sunk because of the PSS system? I am very close to buying one for our boat, and I have searched the internet to see if the system is reliable, and I have not found what you are describing?? -- Scott
PSS No Problems
Scott I've had a PSS Seal on my 356 for four seasons and have never had a problem nor a leak. There was a story years ago about the rotating face (the part attached to the shaft) coming loose and moving up the shaft allowing the bellows to expand and start a leak. That was the only negative that I have ever heard. As an extra precaution you can install a shaft zinc just behing the rotating face of the seal and in the unlikely event it does get loose it can only back up as far as the zinc. In fact you can put the zinc about 1/8 inch behind the rotating face and periodicaly check the gap to make sure the seal has not come loose. I check this about once a season. I'd like to take credit for that idea but someone else posted it on this site and was a great idea. The only maintenance that you need to do on the seal is each year at launch you need to "Burp" the seal. That is pull the bellows back a bid to vent the air out of the seal. Take less than a second. I like a dry bilge and the PSS is the way to go.
Scott I've had a PSS Seal on my 356 for four seasons and have never had a problem nor a leak. There was a story years ago about the rotating face (the part attached to the shaft) coming loose and moving up the shaft allowing the bellows to expand and start a leak. That was the only negative that I have ever heard. As an extra precaution you can install a shaft zinc just behing the rotating face of the seal and in the unlikely event it does get loose it can only back up as far as the zinc. In fact you can put the zinc about 1/8 inch behind the rotating face and periodicaly check the gap to make sure the seal has not come loose. I check this about once a season. I'd like to take credit for that idea but someone else posted it on this site and was a great idea. The only maintenance that you need to do on the seal is each year at launch you need to "Burp" the seal. That is pull the bellows back a bid to vent the air out of the seal. Take less than a second. I like a dry bilge and the PSS is the way to go.
PSS is tops!
I don't know what put the burr under Daryl's saddle, but he is suffering from some serious misconceptions. We had our PSS installed about a year and a half ago, I think the inventor should have a sainthood conferred upon him/her. Marc: rather than a zinc, we were advised to use a SS hose clamp. Installed just ahead of the seal on the shaft it performs the same function. EG
I don't know what put the burr under Daryl's saddle, but he is suffering from some serious misconceptions. We had our PSS installed about a year and a half ago, I think the inventor should have a sainthood conferred upon him/her. Marc: rather than a zinc, we were advised to use a SS hose clamp. Installed just ahead of the seal on the shaft it performs the same function. EG
PSS is great (and you have to be careful)
I have had the PSS system for several years, and had to replace it once. I couldn't stand the wet bilge and installed a PSS in our second year. No drips, dry bilge, installed during the off season; no problems. My Hunter 290 has a blower and exhaust hose above the engine; this hose came lose and wrapped itself around the shaft (while underway) and sliced through the soft rubber on the PSS seal. Water came pouring in; luckily, the exhaust hose so thoroughly wrapped itself that it actually plugged the shaft seal. We hauled out the next day and I reinstalled a new PSS system a week later. Lest you think I was nuts, I modified the exhaust hose so it wouldn't do this again. Long story short - there are reasons to be more careful with the PSS system. But that's the nature of a lot of things on any boat. Make sure the area around the shaft is clear of falling objects (and Hunter owners beware unneeded exhaust fans). Once you're clear, then the PSS is an excellent system that works as intended. Paul
I have had the PSS system for several years, and had to replace it once. I couldn't stand the wet bilge and installed a PSS in our second year. No drips, dry bilge, installed during the off season; no problems. My Hunter 290 has a blower and exhaust hose above the engine; this hose came lose and wrapped itself around the shaft (while underway) and sliced through the soft rubber on the PSS seal. Water came pouring in; luckily, the exhaust hose so thoroughly wrapped itself that it actually plugged the shaft seal. We hauled out the next day and I reinstalled a new PSS system a week later. Lest you think I was nuts, I modified the exhaust hose so it wouldn't do this again. Long story short - there are reasons to be more careful with the PSS system. But that's the nature of a lot of things on any boat. Make sure the area around the shaft is clear of falling objects (and Hunter owners beware unneeded exhaust fans). Once you're clear, then the PSS is an excellent system that works as intended. Paul
That exhaust hose could have ripped..
That exhaust hose could have ripped the rubber hose holding a standard stuffing box as well. BOTH standard stuffing boxes and PSS's have a rubber hose or rubber bellows in the case of the PSS connecting the device to the shaft log. The weak link in both systems is rubber........ http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising
That exhaust hose could have ripped the rubber hose holding a standard stuffing box as well. BOTH standard stuffing boxes and PSS's have a rubber hose or rubber bellows in the case of the PSS connecting the device to the shaft log. The weak link in both systems is rubber........ http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising
So where did Daryl go???
He comes in makes bogus claims & assertions and then never backs them up with any sort of data????
He comes in makes bogus claims & assertions and then never backs them up with any sort of data????
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