P303 What do you get when you use 5200

[StargazerP303]

Hi! all I finally finished the work fixing a leak around the chain-plate. Picture one is 3m's 5200 used to seal the chain plate to the deck. Problem is 5200 hardens and leaves you with separation for water to enter. This time I used Bed-it.. Wow its great stuff. Here's pictures of the project and the hidden damage it caused me. The next entry is the repaired wood portion needed to be replaced.

Capt. Rob

 

[StargazerP303]

I had to remove the wooden shelf and build a replacement.. Its now fixed and is great!
Capt. Rob

 

[SailingGestalt]

Great job! This is a project of mine this year on my P34. Did you have the mast pulled for this job or did you just do one side at a time? I've been told by a few boat yard workers that with a keel stepped mast you can simply loosen the shrouds on one side, pull the chain plate and rebel it and then do the same for the opposite side. Any suggestions here for me? I have no desire to pull the mast unless it's the only way to do this job. How long (barring any major damage during the project or hidden damage to the plates) do you think this job would take? Thanks!

 

[jssailem]

Maybe this is obvious but you don't just let the port stays go to work on the chainplates. You take the main halyard and secure it to the port rail. You take a spinnaker halyard and secure it to the port rail. You mark the turnbuckle so you can retension to the same place. Then during a no breeze window you ease the stay tension, pull the pin and work like hell on the chain plate removal and repair before the 25 knt breeze fills in and trys to knock your mast to the water.

Or so I've heard.

 

[jssailem]

Oh by the way. Real nice work Capt Rob

 

[Richard Theyerl]

Where on the boat was the dry rot in your picture and how did you repair it? I just bought a P36.

 

[centerline]

5200 doesnt harden, but stays flexible and pliable, with great elongation properties... if whatever was around the chainplates was hard, it couldnt have been 5200, although there may have been 5200 OVER some other hard bedding compound....

I have have my share of chainplate repairs, and the biggest issue I have found for the reason for the leak is the movement of the chainplate where it exits the deck...
when making a repair, I clean the area and the exit hole well, then use epoxy putty to press in the voids between the chainplate and deck, and I fill it well so the chainplate has no room to move... then I use either 5200 or UV4000 to seal around the chainplate... after this cures, I install the trim plate.
then I mask the trim plate so there about 1/8th to 3/16 of an inch showing on either side of the cutout where it fits around the chainplate, and fair some sealer here also.... then pull the tape off for a professional look.

as long as the chainplate does not move independently of the deck, it wont ever leak again...

 

[Stu Jackson]

centerline, WADR, (and we usually agree on most other things) 5200 is the possibly worst thing to use on chainplates.

Chainplates REQUIRE regular preventative maintenance.

5200 is SATAN'S GLUE and is NOT designed for repeated maintenance, i.e., removal and rebedding.

I've been using Maine Sail's bed it with butyl for many years, no leaks.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7265.msg49430.html#msg49430

 

[centerline]

centerline, WADR, (and we usually agree on most other things) 5200 is the possibly worst thing to use on chainplates.

Chainplates REQUIRE regular preventative maintenance.

5200 is SATAN'S GLUE and is NOT designed for repeated maintenance, i.e., removal and rebedding.

I've been using Maine Sail's bed it with butyl for many years, no leaks.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7265.msg49430.html#msg49430

sometimes we just have to be different

as long as the chainplates dont move independent of the hull/deck, the satens glue makes a very long life repair.... it adheres better than anything else, and as long as it doesnt tear loose in the joint from chainplate movement it wont leak.... I do prefer UV4000 , but I have used the 5200 with equal results....
and it can be removed, but just takes a bit more work.... or a better technique

I will agree that the butyl tape works well for bedding hardware, and applies easily in warmer temperatures, but when its cool out, it doesnt apply very well....

but even butyl wont hold a seal very long at the chainplates, if the chainplates wash around in the deck cut out that they protrude thru.
some people may have different chainplate configurations on their boat, but I am specifically rerfering to the type that goes thru the deck and is bolted to an inner bulkhead, and has a small finish plate over the sealer.... the hole in the deck is usually cut bigger than it should be to fit the chainplate thru, and is nearly impossible to keep the sealer from breaking loose after a while...

the type of chainplate that has a good heavy plate welded to it that bolts flat and solidly to the deck, in addition the part that attaches to the bulkhead, the butyl would absolutely be the best choice on this type of seal...

I am one who believes it makes no difference what you use on it if you can get it to last so you never need to do it again.... preparation has a lot to do with it

 

[philwsailz]

Problem is 5200 hardens and leaves you with separation for water to enter

If someone told you that was 5200 they were grossly misinformed. Others have pointed to this but 5200 is extremely flexible. It is also extremely permanent. I hope I never see again the powerboat I witnessed being re-assembled using real-deal 5200 to reassemble a stern-drive mid-section to a plywood-core transom. When I got there it was too late in hindsight.

Your pictures point to good old residential window glazing if I can venture a guess. That or big-box bathroom plumbing sealant

Sorry for the ugly rot. Glad you caught it and fixed!

 

[philwsailz]

centerline, WADR, (and we usually agree on most other things) 5200 is the possibly worst thing to use on chainplates.

Chainplates REQUIRE regular preventative maintenance.

5200 is SATAN'S GLUE and is NOT designed for repeated maintenance, i.e., removal and rebedding.

I've been using Maine Sail's bed it with butyl for many years, no leaks.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7265.msg49430.html#msg49430

Stu-

This is interesting. I'm thinking application. This is a PERFECT catch-22 scenario.

5200 is pretty much an ideal deck to chainplate sealant. It has excellent elongation properties and as we all know, is VERY permanent. It's permanence is its undoing though

IF. IF. If you could 100% of the time guarantee that the deck-to-chainplate joint was completely sealed when using 5200 you be golden. You would have... Wait... Wait... WAIT!!!

I was going to say a permanent joint. What Centerline fails to consider is a saturated core from another deck penetration.

As I type thism, understanding evolves. To address a singular water penetration point ignores the total system. Any single deck-penetrated hunk of stainless should always be subject to inspection; not from its deck penetration but ALL of the others.

To that end, and despite its capabilities I agree 5200 is not the right product.

Sorry Centerline!

 

[StargazerP303]

Thank you all for your input here! What I found was that 3m's 5200 when it cures (dried) by itself yes it is flexing a little. However, In most cases it very..very firm and holds its form too-too well. Bed-it does it for me because, it doesn't cure hard and remains fluid as in the pictures showing you the chain-plate and 5200 lifting off the deck.. thus, allowing water and rain to flow its way into the deck then down the chain-plate. For ME! Ill use Bed-it-Buddy..
Capt. Rob

 

[StargazerP303]

Great job! This is a project of mine this year on my P34. Did you have the mast pulled for this job or did you just do one side at a time? I've been told by a few boat yard workers that with a keel stepped mast you can simply loosen the shrouds on one side, pull the chain plate and rebel it and then do the same for the opposite side. Any suggestions here for me? I have no desire to pull the mast unless it's the only way to do this job. How long (barring any major damage during the project or hidden damage to the plates) do you think this job would take? Thanks!

Time in project Port-side.. 1-week. This was the first and new to me so it took time to cut out rot and replaced rotten wood ie..glue,sanding,drying time, sanding and repaint. The starboard side 2 days. In addition to this I replaced all bolts and used nylon-locking nuts rather then lock-washers. Reason.. I found several bolts loose.
Capt Rob

 

[Stu Jackson]

Just for centerline, thanks, I understand.

For the OP, I simply continue to mention that IMHO rebedding chainplates is NOT a PERMANENT thing, but rather part of regular preventative maintenance. My boat is 30 years old and in the past 18 years I've had her, I've done all six chainplates over the course of the past 15 years.

The originals were done with, most likely, sillykone or maybe even something more "permanent." The holes in the deck, clearly shown in the photos from my earlier link, were already sealed. Since my boat was among the first off the assembly line in the first year of production, I don't know if the factory sealed them or the PO did during his 12 years of ownership. Of course, many skippers with my same boat but later models, have not reported sealed openings, just as many other skippers of other boats from this and most any other builder of recreational sailboats of our "ilk." .

The ones I've done with butyl haven't leaked.

And we've even had rain here this year!

Your boat, your choice.

 

[centerline]

Stu-

This is interesting. I'm thinking application. This is a PERFECT catch-22 scenario.
What Centerline fails to consider is a saturated core from another deck penetration.

its not that I failed to consider a wet core issue, but only that I assume whoever is doing the job considers it and remedies it.... if the job needs doing, it needs to be done right and completely to obtain the long term goal.... my consideration for the 5200 takes in the need to prevent a wet core as well as a wet interior.... in a very wet environment

and like I mentioned, where the chainplate is manufactured with a "bolt-to-deck' plate welded to it and needs to be bedded afainst the hull, 5200 is not the best choice, as this WILL cause a problem when, even though the joint is NOT leaking, the chainplates are due for their 10yr inspection/replacement and need to be removed...,

but where a chainplate passes directly thru the deck to a bulkhead without any mechanical deck attachment,, where it needs a sealer around the opening rather than a bedding compound, I will stand by the 5200, as its an easy removal when the inspection is due....

 

[Maine Sail]

Hi! all I finally finished the work fixing a leak around the chain-plate. Picture one is 3m's 5200 used to seal the chain plate to the deck. Problem is 5200 hardens and leaves you with separation for water to enter. This time I used Bed-it.. Wow its great stuff. Here's pictures of the project and the hidden damage it caused me. The next entry is the repaired wood portion needed to be replaced.

Capt. Rob

Rob,

What I see here are a few compounded issues:

#1 I see what looks a lot like silicone contamination. The 5200 appears to have separated cleanly from the deck and this is highly indicative of gelcoat silicone contamination. 3M5200 is tenacious stuff but even silicone contamination can cause 5200 to fail to adhere, I see it regularly.

#2 I also see a welded chain plate cover on an application that ideally should have a free-floating plate (non-welded). There is clearly movement between the hull liner anchor point and the deck, and with a welded plate it will move more than the 5200 can accommodate. All polyurethane sealants continue to harden over time despite reaching a high level of fairly elastic cure pretty quickly. As they age they become less elastic. The ratings for elongation do not take aging into account and IMHO are a bit misleading. Still even if you planned on 500% elongation before failure, and your plate squished the 5200 to 1/64", you only have about 0.06" of allowable movement before a failure. This is why the chainplate hole through the deck needs plenty of chamfered gap around it so your allowable movement before failure is sufficient.

#3 When it comes time to make new chain-plates, and yours already have some corrosion, I would not go with welded covers. It is a rare production boat that can pull off welded covers. To do welded covers means ZERO movement between anchor point and deck and that rarely happens on boats like this.. I would urge you to make the cover plates large enough so they can be through bolted using machine screws, washers and nylock nuts.. This way the chain plate can move independently of the cover plate, and with a highly elastic sealant like Bed-It, you will not have these issues. You still need to sand away the silicone but once that is done you should be leak free for a long while.

When I am rebedding chain plates this is the process I use:

-- Chamfer hole through deck so it is slightly wider at top than bottom. This allows for sufficient movement of the chain plate. On most many boats the chain plates will move slightly.

-- Route core away and epoxy pot the chain plate deck penetration hole as well as cover plate through bolt holes.

-- Pack in the Bed-It Tape using a silicone kitchen tool so it is still slightly proud of deck.

-- Cover back of cover plate with Bed-It and follow bedding procedure for standard deck hardware. Tighten the cover plate slowly..

 

[StargazerP303]

Rob,

What I see here are a few compounded issues:

#1 I see what looks a lot like silicone contamination. The 5200 appears to have separated cleanly from the deck and this is highly indicative of gelcoat silicone contamination. 3M5200 is tenacious stuff but even silicone contamination can cause 5200 to fail to adhere, I see it regularly.

#2 I also see a welded chain plate cover on an application that ideally should have a free-floating plate (non-welded). There is clearly movement between the hull liner anchor point and the deck, and with a welded plate it will move more than the 5200 can accommodate. All polyurethane sealants continue to harden over time despite reaching a high level of fairly elastic cure pretty quickly. As they age they become less elastic. The ratings for elongation do not take aging into account and IMHO are a bit misleading. Still even if you planned on 500% elongation before failure, and your plate squished the 5200 to 1/64", you only have about 0.06" of allowable movement before a failure. This is why the chainplate hole through the deck needs plenty of chamfered gap around it so your allowable movement before failure is sufficient.

#3 When it comes time to make new chain-plates, and yours already have some corrosion, I would not go with welded covers. It is a rare production boat that can pull off welded covers. To do welded covers means ZERO movement between anchor point and deck and that rarely happens on boats like this.. I would urge you to make the cover plates large enough so they can be through bolted using machine screws, washers and nylock nuts.. This way the chain plate can move independently of the cover plate, and with a highly elastic sealant like Bed-It, you will not have these issues. You still need to sand away the silicone but once that is done you should be leak free for a long while.

When I am rebedding chain plates this is the process I use:

-- Chamfer hole through deck so it is slightly wider at top than bottom. This allows for sufficient movement of the chain plate. On most many boats the chain plates will move slightly.

-- Route core away and epoxy pot the chain plate deck penetration hole as well as cover plate through bolt holes.

-- Pack in the Bed-It Tape using a silicone kitchen tool so it is still slightly proud of deck.

-- Cover back of cover plate with Bed-It and follow bedding procedure for standard deck hardware. Tighten the cover plate slowly..

Thanks for the great input Maine Sail.. You defiantly put a lot of thought into this repair and I really appreciate your input as well as others readers. However, The one issue here that needs to be looked at is the designed, such as why did Pearson weld its "Cover Plate to Chain Plate" It wasn't obvious at first glance but, after removing it, it was clear that the anchor point was not totally strong enough to handle total weight of an independent chain plate. Being said! I am making a cover plate for the bottom that is larger then the welded piece. This should give me a little more strength but will assure the weight is better to handle the deck movement during sailing too! The fiberglass currently is a little more then just 1/4 inch thick that maintains the chain plate. Again, Thanks for your input ALL! Capt. Rob