P10M Heavy weather helm on beam reach

[kmart]

Soo, Was out yesterday. wind was 15kts steady.
I'm on a beam reach.... and hitting hull speed. (7.3 kts)
Healed over but not too much (30 deg maby)
All was great... except for the fact I had a great deal of weather helm at the wheel.
Not rounding up. was in control. just a lot of effort on wheel and a good amount of rudder to keep her going straight

Details:Boat is a peason 10M Sloop rig
Head sail is a 140% Genoa
Main has a good roach and battens.
Had the main traveler up high so boom was centered.
Had the jib fair-leads way aft
Backstay adjuster was tightened up so there was some... but not lots of mast bend
Tell tails were mostly flying straight back.
Its a heavy boat... so I don't thing I was overpowered in 15kts .

Not complaining... I was at hull speed and having a blast.
but I'd like to understand why the heavy helm.. and how do I adjust to fix?
Thanks
K

 

[Apex]

drop the traveler....
at tthat amount of wind, over canvassed is likely, and dropping makes the main act more like a brake, choking the slot some.
but at hull speed, you don't need more efficiency, you need less rudder angle
:ears:

 

[markwbird]

You had the boom centered on a beam reach? There's the problem. The main should be out a beam. Let it out until a bubble starts at the front part of the sail and adjust to taste based on weather helm. The headsail should also be out to where the telltales fly.

 

[Chief RA]

At 15 you need to let the sails out until the speed just drops off. Pull back in to full knot speed and you should not be down to 30 or heavy weather helm. Apex is right as well as that plays into too tight of trim. Mark is explaining how to visualize the right trim and of course he is right. If experienced sailors could finally get through to all that sails not tight enough is preferable to setting tight! Chief

 

[Cayennita]

You should drop the traveler when there is more than five degrees of helm. Also crank the back stay and move your crew to the weather rail ans as far aft as possible.

 

[kmart]

You had the boom centered on a beam reach? There's the problem. The main should be out a beam. Let it out until a bubble starts at the front part of the sail and adjust to taste based on weather helm. The headsail should also be out to where the telltales fly.

Opps sorry , I gave some wrong info. I had boom center line and sails in tight earlier when beating.
When on the beam reach sails were let out ... traveler was center line... Boom was out. But helm was heavy. I don't think I would be over canvased in 15kts.... All tell tails were streaming back on both main and headsail so I couldn't have had the sails off by too much.

 

[kappykaplan]

I'd drop the traveler 1/2 way to leeward on a beam reach.

 

[kmart]

I'd drop the traveler 1/2 way to leeward on a beam reach.

Tks. I'll try that a try next time.

Soo moving traveler to leeward will Spll wind from main? Is my main ovwrpowing the headsail...thus the weather helm? There was just another thread where it was discussed that the big headsail on the 10m is the main driver. I was thinking I had too much headsail out??

 

[markwbird]

I know on my boat I would need to have some bubble in the mainsail at 15 kts on a beam to get the weather helm down to a comfortable level. Most modern cruisers have this issue to some degree. My approach would be to tighten the vang to flatten the main and then ease the traveler down and let the boom out until the helm is where I like it.

 

[kmart]

Ahhh. You might be on to somethin.
I'll definitely move traveler down.

I generally keep my out hall tight. Never really adjust it. That would keep the bubble out of the main.
So if I loose the outhall. That should help as well?

 

[Davidasailor26]

Don't loosen the outhaul in those conditions. While it might backwind the luff slightly it will also power up the sail and add weather helm. Better to ease the traveller or sheet to depower until the bubble forms. I might also loosen the vang to spill some air off the top of the sail. (More vang tension doesn't really flatten the sail, it reduces twist which adds power.)

 

[Anonymous 121765]

KMART,
That's too funny man. Please tell me you didn't purchase you boat from K-Mart please.......Ha.
Seriously though, Mark & Apex were correct.

Having a fin keel w/15kts, the position of your main, sail flattening & boom set can make the difference in performance & angle of heel. 30° for me, unless in short or competing legs is a bit extreme of a heel. It feels like you're flying but actually, your sliding leeward from you rum line. It feels powerful but, this also puts extra stresses on the boat.

Sure, flatten the main, but drop the boom leeward & the first thing you will notice is that your boat is standing taller & if watching your speed over ground, now you're sledding faster. Plus, the ride is more comfortable with less hold-on.

Keep in mind, that setting the boom over past a certain point, will also make for rounding up tendencies especially with a fin keel. It's the sweet spot that you are looking for. Too much let-off can also give you a weather helm effect. It's all about the +/- balance. And sometimes, the wind is a bear & that's when you will need to change your game plan to shorten sail & set as now, the parameters change. I've said this before but keep in mind, just like an airplane, you are merely flying sideways. In our case, we just add water.

This was what Mark & Apex were talking about & it can be alot of fun to find the sweet spot. When you hit it, you feel it right away. Please keep in mind that weather is always dynamic & conditions, a constant change. Stay flexible & fly.

CR

 

[Tally Ho]

Healed over but not too much (30 deg )
Thanks
K

30 degrees is a lot on my boat. She stiffens up around 15 degrees, and in a big gust may get to 30 degrees, but I am usually over canvassed if she stays there.

Does sound like a good sail though.

Have fun.

Greg

 

[Bill Roosa]

Sailboats sail best when they sail upright. By upright it is generally accepted we me less than 15 degrees of heel on average. What you have is an unbalanced rig. Too much power in the main or not enough in the foresail. You should ALWAYS have about 3 degrees of weather helm (and have that 3 degrees of rudder marked on the helm). That 3 degrees is the optimum and lets the rudder help the keel resist side slip but does not impose too much "lift drag"
If you look at the sail plan from above from a vector view you can see that sails that are athwart ships generate a lot of heel and not much forward thrust. Let the boom out and the vector points more in the direction of travel and you get more forward thrust (and less heel!!!!). The best way to discover your sail trim is to play around. All boats are different so don't take what an owner of an identical (no such thing IMHO) boat as the absolute truth. get the boat going on the tack you want and note how much weather helm you have (if any)(that is why you need 3 degrees marked on the helm!!). Too much weather helm is an overpowered main or a under powered foresail. Since we all want to go fast try powering up the foresail first. If speed increases and weather helm decreases then power the jib up more. If that does not work then depower the main (yea it is counterintuitive but it makes the boat go faster). If weather helm decreases and boat speed increases then do that again.....repeat all the above as needed........after going back and forth a couple of times you will get the hang of YOUR BOAT and that is what counts.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Oh yea, and don't forget to use those tell-tails.

 

[kmart]

Thanks for all the infood everyone. This forum is awsome. You guys are great. Will try all of the above next time out.

As for 30 degrees. Heel. Thats a guess at that number. Definitly well beyond 15 though. No inclinomoliter.
Rail was not in water but close.

I was moving fast though... and it was fun. Next time I'll see if I can get sails set at bit better. I try to learn every time out

Oh yeah. And kmart. He he. Not the store. Ken Martini. I.e k-mart.
Even better though. My first sailboat was named....wait for it
Jin-Martini. But that's another story behind that.

 

[Davidasailor26]

If the rail wasn't in the water on a boat of that vintage it may not have been excessive. Newer designs are built to sail flatter but older ones could heel more. Having said that, trying to flatten the boat by depowering the main is certainly worth a try and would likely help the weather helm as well.