My MKII, "Finally," tends to over steer when coming about sometimes by an extra 90 degrees or more. I'm used to a Hobie 16 with more precise turns. Any advice?
Oversteering
- Thread starter rowallis
- Start date
Youre probably well used to the 'natural' sluggishness of any catamaran during a tack. Well designed monohulls usually have lots of 'rocker' inbuilt to the hull shape ... easily turned and the monohull doesnt so resist turning as does a catamaran because of the absence of 'rocker' (a banana shape to the long axis of the hull).
Suggest that you get your HAND off the tiller / wheel and use only your finger tips to monitor and control the slight (constant) pressure on the helm needed to tack a monohull.
Catamarans usually need to be 'horsed' through a tack or they will stall and go into 'irons', well set-up monohulls will almost sail themselves through a tack ... if you let them ........ and if you are/become aware of the slight 'finger pressure' needed on the helm on a well 'set-up' boat to do so.
;-)
Suggest that you get your HAND off the tiller / wheel and use only your finger tips to monitor and control the slight (constant) pressure on the helm needed to tack a monohull.
Catamarans usually need to be 'horsed' through a tack or they will stall and go into 'irons', well set-up monohulls will almost sail themselves through a tack ... if you let them ........ and if you are/become aware of the slight 'finger pressure' needed on the helm on a well 'set-up' boat to do so.
;-)
Interesting..... You didn't mention if your MK-II is a swing keel or wing keel. Don't believe I've noticed this on our wing keel MK-II, but maybe it's depending on the wind? But now that you mentioned it, I do tend to bear off a little after a tack and get my boat speed back up and get the water flowing over the keel and then point up. Also, I use the Rudder-Craft rudder which might make a difference. It's been a couple years since I had a factory rudder on the stern, and after having used the Rudder-Craft unit for a while, the factory rudder was like steering with a barn door on the back. Couldn't wait to remove it!
GREAT hearing from another MK-II owner!
Don
GREAT hearing from another MK-II owner!
Don
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Thanks for your thoughts. Interestingly, a friend who has won 3 national titles in Catalina 25s had the same issue when sailing my boat. I'll give your ideas a try next time out.
Don,
I use a similar tactic but often still fails for me. Maybe more practice. She's a swing keel -- not sure if that matters. What is a rudder-craft unit?
Bob
I use a similar tactic but often still fails for me. Maybe more practice. She's a swing keel -- not sure if that matters. What is a rudder-craft unit?
Bob
I would think a swing keel MK-II would perform better than my wing keel as deep as it goes below the boat.
Rudder-Craft,(IdaSailor in the past), makes rudders for just about every model sailboat out there. They are milled from a solid plastic so they can't absorb water. They have a ballanced design for the leading edge, and a better foil design than the factory rudders. They just about eliminated round-ups, and it's nice to steer with a couple fingers. I have both their solid rudder, and one of their kick-up rudders. Their kick-up rudder, unlike the Catalina factory kick-up rudder, if you run aground, or hit something, the rudder lifts up and when it's clear, the gas strut pushes the rudder back down. It's also a ballanced design, so it also takes only fingers to steer the boat. I don't know how many times I thought I would snap the tiller on my old C-22 with a factory kick-up rudder. Now they are not class approved for C-22 racing, but I've declared it in PHRF events and they didn't care. But I'm not a racer, so it's pretty much a moot point for me. I recently purchased their mast crutch assembly, which attaches to their kick-up rudder, so I don't have to remove the rudder when towing. You pull a line and the rudder blade rotates 180 degrees up. Launch the boat, pull the line, and the rudder rotates down and holds itself in place. Guranteed forever to the original purchaser also, they stand behind their product.
Did I mention I LOVE their rudders? :dance:
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/index.php
I'm working on an article on the C-22 Rudder-Craft rudders for the next issue of the MainBrace. Will have lots of photos so folks can see the comparrison between the Rudder-Craft and factory rudder.
Don
Rudder-Craft,(IdaSailor in the past), makes rudders for just about every model sailboat out there. They are milled from a solid plastic so they can't absorb water. They have a ballanced design for the leading edge, and a better foil design than the factory rudders. They just about eliminated round-ups, and it's nice to steer with a couple fingers. I have both their solid rudder, and one of their kick-up rudders. Their kick-up rudder, unlike the Catalina factory kick-up rudder, if you run aground, or hit something, the rudder lifts up and when it's clear, the gas strut pushes the rudder back down. It's also a ballanced design, so it also takes only fingers to steer the boat. I don't know how many times I thought I would snap the tiller on my old C-22 with a factory kick-up rudder. Now they are not class approved for C-22 racing, but I've declared it in PHRF events and they didn't care. But I'm not a racer, so it's pretty much a moot point for me. I recently purchased their mast crutch assembly, which attaches to their kick-up rudder, so I don't have to remove the rudder when towing. You pull a line and the rudder blade rotates 180 degrees up. Launch the boat, pull the line, and the rudder rotates down and holds itself in place. Guranteed forever to the original purchaser also, they stand behind their product.
Did I mention I LOVE their rudders? :dance:
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/index.php
I'm working on an article on the C-22 Rudder-Craft rudders for the next issue of the MainBrace. Will have lots of photos so folks can see the comparrison between the Rudder-Craft and factory rudder.
Don
Just a quick thought here. Next time out, steer from well aft; and during the tack take a look over the stern to see if or not your rudder is cavitating during the turn.
With stern hung rudders some easily cavitate, some dont; depends a lot on surface roughness, leading edge shape, etc.
I am sorry for a temporary hi-jack but I tried sending a pm and couldn't get it to work for some reason??
Don- Would you mind taking measurements of the size of the blade on your ruddercraft? I have one from my RK20 that I want to convert for the C22 but was concerned about the size... one of these days I will calculate the sq inches below the waterline of the factory rudder and compare it to my ruddercraft
Don- Would you mind taking measurements of the size of the blade on your ruddercraft? I have one from my RK20 that I want to convert for the C22 but was concerned about the size... one of these days I will calculate the sq inches below the waterline of the factory rudder and compare it to my ruddercraft
Hawk232: total length on my fixed Rudder-Craft rudder is 59.5", Catalina Factory fixed length is 60.5" the Rudder-Craft foil is straight,(12") not tapered like the Catalina Factory,(11" and the waterline and 15.5 at the bottom), and from the bottom of the pintle to the bottom of the Rudder-Craft is 36.5", vs the Catalina Factory rudder is 37.5 ". So it would appear the factory rudder has more surface area under the water, but the Rudder-Craft has an improved foil shape. You can also see that the leading edge of the Rudder-Craft rudder is in line with the pivot point of the pintle, which is why it requires so much less effort to steer the boat.
Boblufkin: The C-22's never came from the factory with anything but one of Catalina's fiberglass fixed, or kick-up rudder. Sounds like you have an Ida-Sailor/Rudder-Craft rudder. Consider yourself lucky in my opinion.
Don
Boblufkin: The C-22's never came from the factory with anything but one of Catalina's fiberglass fixed, or kick-up rudder. Sounds like you have an Ida-Sailor/Rudder-Craft rudder. Consider yourself lucky in my opinion.
Don
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You don't need to spend a bunch of money on a new rudder. Change your steering technique. As Rich H mentioned... a monohull and catamaran react quite differently when tacking... Easy on the tiller, let the sails do most of the work.
The Hobie 16 is a light weight monohull with dagger boa
rds and rudder at each end of the pontoon or hull. Much different from the Cat. 22 MK which is heavier, swing/fixed wing keels, larger sail area and single rudder. Therefore, techniques and wind speeds/sail control will vary between both boats. I would suggest that instead of what I call slamming that rudder over like you do on a catamaran, you be a little slower and easier with that on the C22. Depending on winds as you tack thru the turn on you C22, Starting into the turn, tighten up on the mainsheet and as you feel the wind push the boom away, let the main out sometimes a lot again depending on the wind and as you start to complete the turn, bring the main back in which will help to eliminate a lot of oversteerage. Also if you have the kick up rudder always make sure it is down all the way.
rds and rudder at each end of the pontoon or hull. Much different from the Cat. 22 MK which is heavier, swing/fixed wing keels, larger sail area and single rudder. Therefore, techniques and wind speeds/sail control will vary between both boats. I would suggest that instead of what I call slamming that rudder over like you do on a catamaran, you be a little slower and easier with that on the C22. Depending on winds as you tack thru the turn on you C22, Starting into the turn, tighten up on the mainsheet and as you feel the wind push the boom away, let the main out sometimes a lot again depending on the wind and as you start to complete the turn, bring the main back in which will help to eliminate a lot of oversteerage. Also if you have the kick up rudder always make sure it is down all the way.
On my boat, most newbies want to keep the boat turning until they are beyond the new intended course. I tell them once the jib comes across, slowly straighten the boat out, and we should settle into the new course easily. Once they think about it and understand it, I call "ready about" and we do it again. and again... and...
Good comment Dave.
If indeed the rudder on this C22 is vulnerable to cavitating during a 'sail loaded' turn, over-tensioning of the mainsheet (to 'hook up' the mainsail leech towards the windward side); thus, inducing a potential 'skid' of the hull to leewards ....... will potentially increase the potential of rudder cavitation ... and resultant loss of control (apparent oversteering).
Rx: look at the water surface AT the rudder during a turn when beating ... if there is AIR being drawn/sucked down along the side of the rudder - cavitation = partial loss of control and 'apparent' oversteering!!!!!!!
So, I guess an additional question is pertinent for the OP: how much so-called 'weather helm' is this boat carrying to begin with?
If more than a 'gentle' weather helm, that too will help to induce a cavitating rudder to cavitate 'earlier'. If noticeable weather helm, the FIRST correction is to tighten the mainsail halyard to shift the draft more forward ... until the weather helm is lessened; not to rake the mast.
Hobie 16 in this case is probably a Cat ... with hardly any hull 'rocker' except for the bow section; and, the long immersed waterline length can easily 'hide' apparent 'weather helm'.
If indeed the rudder on this C22 is vulnerable to cavitating during a 'sail loaded' turn, over-tensioning of the mainsheet (to 'hook up' the mainsail leech towards the windward side); thus, inducing a potential 'skid' of the hull to leewards ....... will potentially increase the potential of rudder cavitation ... and resultant loss of control (apparent oversteering).
Rx: look at the water surface AT the rudder during a turn when beating ... if there is AIR being drawn/sucked down along the side of the rudder - cavitation = partial loss of control and 'apparent' oversteering!!!!!!!
So, I guess an additional question is pertinent for the OP: how much so-called 'weather helm' is this boat carrying to begin with?
If more than a 'gentle' weather helm, that too will help to induce a cavitating rudder to cavitate 'earlier'. If noticeable weather helm, the FIRST correction is to tighten the mainsail halyard to shift the draft more forward ... until the weather helm is lessened; not to rake the mast.
Hobie 16 in this case is probably a Cat ... with hardly any hull 'rocker' except for the bow section; and, the long immersed waterline length can easily 'hide' apparent 'weather helm'.
Exactly.... WRONG. It is a Catamaran (that's two hulls, Dave) It has NO daggerboards... Its asymmetric hull design, which eliminates the need for daggerboards, is the main reason for their popularity over the last 40 years.
http://www.hobiecat.com/sail/hobie-16/
I'm also not sure how you would attach a dagger boar AND a rudder to each end of the hull or pontoon.
Crazy Dave musta been mis-remembering it as a Hobie 18, which does have daggerboards. 
But it's true that the Hobie 16 doesn't have daggerboards, one of the main reasons it sets the standard for "beach cat." Though that still doesn't mean you can sail it in really skinny water. We learned that in Barnegat Bay when the rudders popped up on us in skinny water (approximately 75% of the bay) Talk about weather helm...
But it's true that the Hobie 16 doesn't have daggerboards, one of the main reasons it sets the standard for "beach cat." Though that still doesn't mean you can sail it in really skinny water. We learned that in Barnegat Bay when the rudders popped up on us in skinny water (approximately 75% of the bay
) Talk about weather helm...
More specifically, were you out this Tuesday (Jan 22)? I was sailing the Xtreme 25 with the yellow asym up when we drove by a Ca22 mk2 near the LCYC.
I was wrong on the 16 but have seen a few where they must have been added in the past. I used to be a Nacra dealer at one time.