Overpowered?

Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
A couple of times sailing the Bavaria (7/8 fractional) close-hauled in relatively strong wind, say 20 kt apparent, the boat sort of lays over pretty far and more-or-less stops, making very little fwd way. Main full up, 120 % Genoa full out. I can bear off after cracking off the mainsail and resume sailing. But just imagine, there is no strong weather helm or lee helm. The boat just lying there for a few second until I do something about it. It’s strange that the two most memorable occurrences has been while trying to lay Two Harbors, Catalina Isl against an afternoon wind—about 5 ni.mi. distant. Any ideas? It’s not like other behaviors of the yacht.

KG
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
What was the apparent wind angle? It sounds like you were pointing too high.

The traveller should be raised to center the boom, and the mainsheet trimmed to allow some twist in the sail.

What's going on with the jib? were the tell tales flowing evenly? The genoa cars should be aft and the sail should be maybe 6 inches off the spreader.

How old is the mainsail? If it is blown out, the boat will heel more.

Finally current, was current affecting the apparent wind angle?
 
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Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
What was the apparent wind angle? It sounds like you were pointing too high.

The traveller should be raised to center the boom, and the mainsheet trimmed to allow some twist in the sail.

What's going on with the jib? were the tell tales flowing evenly? The genoa cars should be aft and the sail should be maybe 6 inches off the spreader.

How old is the mainsail? If it is blown out, the boat will heel more.

Finally current, was current affecting the apparent wind angle?
Good questions. Mainsail is less than 3 yr old. Traveller down to counter weather helm. Apparent wind angle probably 50-deg or so, which is where it typically is on that point of sail—essentially a beat trim. If pointing too high, the boat would likely level some, not stay heeled over, etc.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Good questions. Mainsail is less than 3 yr old. Traveller down to counter weather helm. Apparent wind angle probably 50-deg or so, which is where it typically is on that point of sail—essentially a beat trim. If pointing too high, the boat would likely level some, not stay heeled over, etc.
Try traveller up, less mainsheet, more vang. The vang will keep the boom down while the mainsheet will induce twist in the main reducing weather helm. Upwind banging puts a lot of pressure on the boom, more than when off the wind.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Grasping for straws here... Catalina Eddy?
I don’t know. I think it happened once nearing Santa Cruz Island. Same relative geo position. Beat trim in strong wind nearing the Island. In hundreds of hours of sailing the Bavaria, only 3 instances I can recall. Each nearing an Island hard-on a moderately strong wind. No weather helm. The boat just heels over some and virtually stops for a few moments until I do something about it.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,995
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
The description makes wonder if you stalled the sails.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Try traveller up, less mainsheet, more vang. The vang will keep the boom down while the mainsheet will induce twist in the main reducing weather helm. Upwind banging puts a lot of pressure on the boom, more than when off the wind.
As I said, there is no weather helm. The boat is not trying to round up. It’s just lying there.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
The description makes wonder if you stalled the sails.
I was thinking along those lines as well. I suppose the apparent wind angle COULD be increasing, me not noticing, w/ no change in sail trim until I ease the mainsail and start to bear off.
 
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Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Maybe I’m enraptured by the views, not paying close enough attention to my sailing! But it is weird. The boat apparently cannot do anything until I change something.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I was thinking along those lines as well. I suppose the apparent wind angle COULD be increasing, me not noticing, w/ no change in sail trim until I ease the main and start to bear off.
Sounds plausible to me. 50 degrees apparent isn’t really beating, more of a close reach. Beating would be in the low-mid 30’s apparent, at least for our boat. The wind could be bending around the shoreline, changing the angle. 20 knots apparent might also be enough to start to overpower the boat, at which point it will heal too much for the foils to work effectively. But at least for our boat that doesn’t happen until over 20 apparent, so I’m guessing the angle is more the issue. It might be that easing the main is what’s fixing your problem, and bearing off is just coincidence. Next time you try to feel like it’s happening try pointing up a little instead to see what happens if you just start to lift a little.
 
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Mar 26, 2011
3,401
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
The keel stalled. This was cause by a combination of extreme heel, pointing too high for a moment, and probably weather helm you didn't feel (does the boat have good feel through the wheel?). Additionally, with the traveller down, the main was probably choking the slot (is the foot flat, with full out-haul?), so you have heeling force but not much drive.

Traveler in a little so that you don't choke the slot, but let the head twist off. Outhaul the foot flat. Barber haul the jib out a tick maybe, leads aft, twist to match the mainsail, without flogging. The jib foot needs to be flat too; you use the fore-aft lead position and barber hauler to adjust the jib angle of attack separatly from twist and fullness, since you don't have a boom and outhaul. A common fault is to lower the traveler and ease the jib; the jib just gets full. If the traveler needs eased upwind, the jib needs barberhauled out to maintain the slot and keep the foot flat. Even a few inches helps. Failing that, the leads need to be way aft.

Keep the boat moving. Actually, a bit like my avitar, though I'm sailing a little lower.

Reefed is probably going to be faster, and certainly easier to control.

(Multihulls with shoal keels are quite prone to this. Flat, twisted sails are key.)
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
At 20 kts apparent a lot of boats would be over powered and should probably reef the main. My Hunter didn't like full sail at 15 kts. true which up wind would correspond with 20-21 apparent.
You might try to pull the boom up and let off some on the mainsheet. This will add twist to the main and spill air off the top. I know there is another view that the vang will reduce twist and depower the main but I don't see it.
There are a lot of much worse behaviors a boat can do rather than healing over and stopping.
 
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May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
from your description it's drag. the drag created by your vessel has overpowered the drive created by your sails. any part of your sail that is not lifting will be drag. all the gear on your deck is drag. your rig is drag. letting out some sail to dump extra wind = drag. dodgers, biminis, anchors, flags, dinghies, all areas of the sail plan that are not pulling, ........ are all drag
 
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Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
At 20 kts apparent a lot of boats would be over powered and should probably reef the main. My Hunter didn't like full sail at 15 kts. true which up wind would correspond with 20-21 apparent.
You might try to pull the boom up and let off some on the mainsheet. This will add twist to the main and spill air off the top. I know there is another view that the vang will reduce twist and depower the main but I don't see it.
There are a lot of much worse behaviors a boat can do rather than healing over and stopping.
The 38E rides fairly comfortably in 20 kt app with the 120% Genoa, especially in protected water, often to the surprise of guests aboard.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
It's always about the tell tales... believe in them. If you're heeled over... the wind angle is too far aft probably the result of a puff that either increases windspeed or alters true direction a bit. A small boat will respond to these changes almost instantaneously... larger, heavier vessels will experience a delayed response since momentum is much greater... thus it is important to constantly monitor the jib tales... especially close hauled.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I'm chiming in with thinwater. Open up your slot, and move your traveler up. With the 120 hauled in on an openned boom, you close the slot and move the lift forces into the headsail instead of at the forward portion of the main. Play with the headsail and the slot. A boat with a little weather helm that then leans to heavily on the headsail for headway, loses the weather helm and forward momentum in favor of heeling force.

-Will (Dragonfly)