Overheating A4

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May 19, 2013
7
Catalina Tall rig 30 Charleston
I am in crisis. My engine runs at 200F under load. I bought a reconditioned short block A4 from Moyer as my old engine was running hot with NO oil pressure. The pumps are fine, both push out over 3 gal per minute, the fresh water checks out at 3+ gals both sides of the heat exchanger. Timing checked, oil pressure 40psi dropping to 25 when hot. I repacked the stuffing box, cleaned the bottom, have a new prop (recommended by Moyer) and have even removed the thermostat. All attempts fail. The engine runs at a constant 160F at idle or 1200 rpm. 2000 rpm results in the temperature rising to 200+ in about 10 mins.....
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Quick thoughts:

  • Close off the coolant bypass loop. That's the hose that runs from the sideplate (under the starter) up to the thermostat housing. Pinching the hose off with a pair of vise grips is sufficient for testing. Many of us have a valve installed in that hose for exactly that reason. If yours has the valve, close it.
  • Replace the cam shoe inside the Oberdorfer raw water pump with the new M7 shoe. That alone will virtually double the flow. Heck, replace the shoe in the coolant pump too.
  • Confirm the raw water flow is not obstructed from the thru-hull all the way to the pump.
  • Perform an acid flush on the cooling system per the Moyer protocol. I'm not too concerned about the engine block but the manifold is another matter.
  • Clean out the tube bundle inside the heat exchanger.
 
Nov 18, 2012
183
Catalina 77 - 22 / 75 - 30 Lake Arthur, LA
Had a similar problem. It ended up being my manifold full of gunk. Flush both ways from the 2 water ports on the manifold. BTW, Moyer has a great forum on his website.
 
May 19, 2013
7
Catalina Tall rig 30 Charleston
Thanks guys. I have a valve in the bypass hose - already closed off. The block and head are new (I managed to make a hole in the paper thin old head when rescaling it. Moyer recommends 3-5 gallons per minute for the pumps (raw water pump is new. I am now wondering if the heat exchanger is working efficiently. It is not blacked but the raw water hose that exits the HE is only warm at best, whereas the recirculating water hoses are hot to the touch. Any hints are welcome..
 
May 19, 2013
7
Catalina Tall rig 30 Charleston
That can be the only thing I recon. I think I will get another HE and maybe even run them in series if necessary - I know it shouldn't be! But the water temp in SC is 76 which is not helping enormously. Thanks for taking the time to help. Appreciate it :)
 
Feb 26, 2009
716
Oday 30 Anchor Yacht Club, Bristol PA
why don't you take it out and have it serviced? Most radiator shops can handle it. It could very well be "slimed" inside. They do come apart you know....
 

Rick

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Oct 5, 2004
1,098
Hunter 420 Passage San Diego
Just curious but since the engine does not overheat when not under load, what prop are you running? I know it was recommended but? Stock? She may be working too hard. And removing the thermostat will not solve your problems, only compound them because it wont slow the water flow.

How about the cutlass bearing? Can you turn the shaft when it is in neutral fairly easy?

Good luck

The atomic is aptly named.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,217
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Ignition timing exactly correct? Ignition advance working correctly? Carburetor mixture correct?
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack


What temperature is the thermostat ?

No thermostat is about the worst thing you can do as the fluid will go through the exchanger WAY to fast to be cooled

How are the lines run in and out of the exchanger ?

How does the exchanger feel ?

Mine is and upright one and you can measure a big difference on the surface as the cool fluid leaves the BOTTOM of the exchanger for return to the motor ?

To tell you the truth my A4 has 180 degree thermostat and has not suffered from running in that temperature range if the temperature is stable long term at that range then you may try a lower temperature thermostat to see if it is a water flow or thermostat issue

I had another thought , my exchanger is a two pass unit and IF there is a problem with the rubber gasket that seals the end cap the raw water can travel through the unit and bypass the cooling loop ?
 
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Jan 16, 2012
4
Catalina 27 Oceanside
I had a over heating problem and did everything I could to correct it to no avail. Took off the water strainer and it was clean but I noticed the O ring was missing. I replaced it and the problem was solved, no more over heating.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The A4 thermostat system is a BYPASS thermostat. Running WITHOUT a thermostat will shunt the cooling water around the engine, the engine will NOT be cooled. A BYPASS thermostat system only cools the engine when the thermostat is 'closed', the thermostat closes and then sends the water flow INTO the engine block. To send FULL FLOW of water into the block, squeeze down on the bypass hose with a vice grip, etc.

More Importantly and a higher potential cause of 'overheating' on an A4:
The exhaust manifolds on Universal Atomic 4 engines are 'notorious' for forming 'slab rust' internal to the manifold; the slab rust will eventually block the flow of water!!!!!!!! ..... sometimes the flow will completely block, sometimes not, sometimes when you shut down the engine the slabs that block to exit nipple will fall to the bottom of the manifold and everything is fine .... for a while.
The formation of 'slab rust' is especially common in manifolds that had their water drained when the boat is long term stored. The best way to long term store an A4 is drain the water and then refill the water passages in the engine AND exhaust manifold completely with 50:50 antifreeze with RUST INHIBITERS; never store an A4 or its exhaust manifold 'dry'. When prepping for long term lay-up, run the engine at full throttle for a long time to develop 'heat' so that the engine internals become HOT and change/convert any destructive 'red' rust into 'protective' black (ferrous oxide) rust, ..... then add the antifreeze with rust inhibiters.

•Manifold examination:
Firstly, with explanation - when cast iron cools in it mold when being made/cast it cools in 'stratifications' like an onion. The zones between the stratifications are 'weaker' than the base metal .... and are more subject to 'rusting' than the base metal. Once the area between the stratifications begins to rust it will form 'red' or destructive red rust and red (ferric) rust is less dense than the base metal and thus 'pushes' the stratifications of the cast iron apart to form 'plate rust' or 'slabs of rust'. These 'slabs' usually fall to the bottom on the manifold but if large enough will be 'disturbed' by the water flow and will (occasionally) 'choke' the outlet nozzle at the rear (top) of the manifold. Usually when the engine is shut down, these slabs will again drop to the bottom of the manifold .... only to 'wait' until 'stirred up' and thus 'available' to again and suddenly block the outlet nipple on the rearward water exit nipple. The slabs will never come out of the manifold, because the inlet and the outlet are on top of the manifold .............. . Cast Iron when kept HOT as much as possible will form black/blue ferrous oxide internally in the presence of water which is protective. Slowly over time unless the engine is run to full operating temperature, the black rust will change back to destructive red rust, the low density red rust will start 'pushing' the stratifications of the casting apart. Alway run an A4 for as long and as HOT as possible (T'stat at ~150° if raw water cooled, and 180° for FWC cooled) to keep a well formed layer of black (ferrous) rust 'intact'. This is the reason that Navy ships with cast iron engine components virtually never are shut down --- it keeps the 'protective' black rust intact and prevents the 'red' rust from forming; and, is why for small boat engines and manifold you should always fill with antifreeze with 'rust inhibiters' for long term shut down.

Procedure: Remove the manifold, and 'invert it' (turn it upside-down) so that any 'slabs' will fall to the top of the manifold. You will then be able to 'shake out' most of the slabs. Most 'rust slabs' can be shaken loose or sometimes you can insert a 'stiff' wire to break them up. Then 'pickle' the manifold to remove any 'fouling' (carbonates) - best is to use an 'inhibited' boiler descaler compound such as RydLyme (http://www.apexengineeringproducts.com/products/rydlymehome/), etc. The use of muriatic acid (HCl etc) or other non-inhibited means will only make the slab rusting 'worse'.
Then PRESSURE CHECK the manifold to validate that it is still intact, and to determine that the manifold has not developed a 'pin hole leak' between the 'water side' and the exhaust 'gas side'. If there has developed a pin hole, the engine when it cools down will draw water into the cooling combustion chamber ... and you will rust the piston rings to the piston ring grooves and the cylinder walls !!!!!!!!!!!

How to do a pressure HOLD test on an A4 exhaust manifold ------
• Once any slabs are removed, fouling cleaned out and the manifold 'pickled' ----- block either the inlet or outlet nipple, use a hose and apply a 'cap' etc. over the end to completely block any flow for the test .... .
• Apply a Tee with a pressure gage, a valve between the pressure supply and the 'pressure gage' to the 'other' nipple, all connected to the manifold
• Apply water (or air) pressure to about 20 psi and close the valve.
• If the pressure stays constant (does not decrease over time) when the valve is closed, then high probability that the manifold is 'intact' and without pin holes between the 'gas side' and the 'water side'; if pressure decreases then high probability of 'pin hole' inside the manifold and you MUST replace the manifold.
• If intact, then reassemble .... and promise yourself to NEVER again long term store the manifold with the engine 'dry' - only filled with 50:50 water/antifreeze with rust inhibiters.

The A4 cast iron exhaust manifolds are notorious for developing 'slab rust' and if the slab rust is severe will quickly develop 'pin holes' and you'll eventually get 'water in the cylinders' !!!!!!!!!!!!

hope this helps. ;-)
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
Another thought came to my mind

The original grease cup on the raw water pump which is now the freshwater pump is not needed as much as the antifreeze lubricates the pump

I found and overzealous PO had pumped TONS of grease into the heat exchanger tubes over the years and it took a LOT of cleaning to get it OFF the tubes
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
A quick check of the whole system would be to temporarily bypass the fresh water cooling system plus heat exchanger ... and simply run the engine with 'raw water' cooling.

If the problem is solved, then you have a fouled, etc. heat exchanger. If the problem remains, then strongly suggest evaluating that exhaust manifold.

Of course an indirect read, infrared thermometer can help to quickly isolate and identify the thermal choke point - http://www.amazon.com/HDE-Temperatu...69766542&sr=1-1&keywords=infrared+thermometer
 
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