Overflowing head, can't be good..

[G15876]

Peggie,Something new happened this week-end on our C30 equipped with a Groco head.I have the habit of closing all of my all of thru-hulls whenever I leave the boat but keep them open while living on board on week-ends.On Sunday morning, I woke up to my girls complaining that the head was overflowing, it was actually filled to the rim I managed to dry pump it but then when I checked my holding tank had also been filled. (I had just pumped out Friday night and there's no way we would have filled over the week-end)This is the first time this happened on board, any ideas what would have created this? What would need to be changed? Can an overfilling head actually drain into the holding tank without any pumping action???Thanks,GG

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Yes...it can

There's nothing in the pump to prevent water in the bowl from seeping through the pump and filling the tank. How fast the bowl empties depends on the condition of the joker valve in the discharge. Even a brand new one won't stop slow seepage...if it's very worn, water won't stay in the bowl at all. Either the wet/dry valve in the toilet failed, or someone left it in the wet position (which, if it didn't happen again, is most likely)...leaving an open path into the bowl from the head intake thru-hull into the bowl. Water rose in the bowl to the waterline on the boat--which on your boat is apparently right at the rim of the bowl--and continued to keep the bowl full at the same rate water seeped out. If the entire bowl were below the waterline, your bowl would have overflowed and the boat could have sunk overnight. You need to install a vented loop in the head intake that’s at least 8-12” above the waterline at any angle of heel. Why? Because water outside the boat will try to seek its own level Inside the boat, and relying on the “dry/”flush” valve to keep it out is a good way to sink your boat. Valves fail, and people—-especially landlubber guests--fail even more often to remember to leave the valve in the “dry” position. A vented loop not only provides a siphon break, but it also puts an arch in the hose higher than the waterline. The vented loop must go between the pump and the bowl, which means replacing the short piece of hose with longer hose. It cannot go inline between the through-hull and the pump because it would interfere with the pump’s ability to prime and hold a prime.

 

[Mark15143]

Catalina Design Flaw

I have a 1985 C36 with brand new head and it does the same thing. For some reason Catalina did not put vented loops on head intake hoses. I am lucky since the 36 head and cabinits allow for easy install.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Gee

Catalina put one in my 1986 boat.May not be a C FLAW, but simply "Paco" on the production line missed one.Don't get too upset or try a lawsuit, ain't worth goin' there.Just put one in. What took you so long to find out you didn't have one?Stu

 

[Tom S]

I know my '99 C36 has a vented loop.

It's in the cabinet just behind the head.Are you sure the "pump out" thru-hull at the macerator for your holding tank is 100% closed. Sometimes just a little crack in the seacock valve is enough to backflow into the holding tank.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

It's not a design OR installation flaw

I don't know of a single production boat builder--sail or power--who installs vented loops in head intakes. They aren't included with toilets because they'd just be wasted if the toilet is to be installed above the waterline, so they have to be purchased separately and production builders won't spend the money. Cost is the reason it's also rare to find a vented loop in any disharge line that goes overboard and why they use tee fittings in tank pumpout/overboard discharge lines instead of y-valves. It's up to boat owners to learn how ALL the equipment on their boats works and what additional equipment is needed for safe operation. You have to buy your own PFDs...it's also up to you to buy and install vented loops if they're needed too.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Haven't figured how to put those loops in yet,

someplaces Catalina *o didn't in my '94 270 and the one bothering me now is macerator discharge. Because tank and discharge seacock are below WL seems like water will flow to tank whenever seacock is open, immediately before and after using to pump. So besides adding to the full tank I'm trying to pump, how much does the tank refill between switching off pump & closing seacock ? Just put in new pump but still thinking I can only use close-hauled on a starboard tack in 15 knots to raise thru-hull.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Water will rise in the tank to boat's waterline

So if the whole tank is below the waterline, that means it'll back up all the way to the toilet. However, the macerator will slow it down considerably....and allowing a little water to rise in it and then pumping that out helps to rinse out any sludge in the tank and rinse out the macerator. Just don't EVER use the macerator unless you're right there to close the thru-hull. If you've put the switch anywhere but right next to the tank, move it...'cuz you can't ever risk forgetting to close that seacock. A vented loop is the correct solution, though. If space is tight for it, the solution MAY be to install the macerator above the tank--above the waterline, effectively creating a loop in the line. That is, unless it means the macerator will be too far from the tank discharge to prime without first frying the impeller...in which case a diaphragm electric pump would have been the right choice instead of an impeller pump. However, whether you move the pump or install a loop (which, btw, goes between the pump and the thru-hull), it has be at least 8-12" above the waterline at any angle of heel...at least, at any angle of heel during which the thru-hull will be open. We should have talked before you installed the macerator.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Pump is mounted to tank, everything is under

the starboard settee. Hull with liner construction means breaching liner under settee to extend above WL enough without the loop being dominate decorative element in the cabin. 10 YO boat I've had for 6 months, went for new impellor, pumps on sale, bought new pump. Thought I'd start there while finding right solution for loop placement, I did put new discharge hose in with a loop between pump as high as possible which may be slightly above WL to slow flow. I've got the system working like when it was new, almost got it figured out how to make it right with the assistance of your expertise, thanks again from all of us. I'm going to the boat today but it's too nice too work, I just pumped the tank, so I'm going sailing.