Overboard discharge

[cole]

up to a nickle

Yep, the treatment plants are allowed by law to discharge raw untreated water in to the rivers during big rain events. The idea being the suspended solids are less, due to the volume of water.And what are you going to do with 250 mgd?all at once? Not expounded on in this thread is the soap dilemma, Many soaps are made from fats,proteins and acids. The wasted soap scum coats the river banks and pipes. Just look at the water after you shave and notice how hard it can be to wash away. This scum floats on top of the water and is a nightmare to remove. Now mix that with grease and oil from cars from the roads and I wonder when i'm going to H E double hockey sticks. On a positive note, researchers are using clay to control algae blooms. The clay is mixed with water and the cloud is introduced to the algae. the algae is attracted to the clay(and who isnt) and the whole lot falls to the bottom. Once starved of light and food the algae dies. Or I stir it up when grounding the keel. If the TP or lift station spills in to the creek or a dry weather discharge, there is "heck" to pay. Money promised to the authority is held back in lieu of fines. But then the plant managers are usually promoted out to better, less damaging jobs. I have witnessed this and know it to be true. I havn't experienced it. It tries my faith in engineering and engineers. We all live down streamCole

 

[Peter J. Brennan]

Antibacterial soaps and detergents

are an advertising creation. Americans over the years have been persuaded that the whole world is poisonous and constant cleaning and super cleanliness are the only way to survive. On the other hand, my mother always said that everyone can expect to eat a peck of dirt in his lifetime. She ran a clean house but not an antiseptic one. We never got sick while the clean freaks all around us were sick all the time. And now it appears from recent reports that my mother was right. The epidemic of asthma and other once seldom seen chronic illnesses seem largely to be the result of antiseptic upbringings that defeated the body's attempts to build immunities. It is possible to be too clean.There is a place we go in summer near Oyster Bay called the Sand Hole. It has eight foot tides twice a day and lots of shellfish, including wild oysters just lying on the surface at low tide. On holiday weekends the place is posted against the taking of shellfish because of the numbers of people expected (which was sort of funny this past Labor Day with only four boats all weekend). Hmmm. Aren't all those people supposed to have MSDs on board? And use them? So it shouldn't matter how many boats are in there as far as pollution is concerned? Or are the Coast Guard and local authorities just being sensibly pragmatic?The oysters are delicious, by the way, though their numbers have greatly decreased over the last three years, a period that coincides with the dieoff of the lobster fishery in Long Island Sound..

 

[Tom]

Peter totally agree with you on the immune system

and how everyone else seems to be sick and they are the ones that are anal about cleanliness.PS...I LOVE the Sand Hole...I consider it MY place (lol) . There is no better place to spend a quiet/fun weekend close by (well not always quiet...;-)..but always enjoyable) I even moved to be closer and now I am just 6 miles due north in Stamford. It has been listed and is one of greatest gunkhole anchorages on the east coast.....too bad that last entrance keeps silting over....the charts say its only 3 feet at low tide. But the good thing is it keeps alot of boats away from it and these days it not too crowded, I just go as far in as possible......even the "guido" go-fast boats are basically respectful in there. (though even at idle they are WAY too loud).But I always wonder how many people are as conscientious as I am about not pumping overboard in there. I have heard "rumors" from some motorboaters that aren't very conscientious about that. (I want to rap them upside the head with club.....these are the same people that can't figure out how to set an anchor) But like you said, twice a day the waters are flushed in and out of there with about 7-8 foot tides. And even though I find it hard to find oysters (though I find a few) I do find delicious, sweet as butter, "pisser" clams (steamers) and in the 5-7 years I've been going there neither I, nor anyone on my boat, has gotten sick from eating them........in a way I am amazedBelow is a link to Maptech that shows the SandHole. To veiw you need Microsoft Internet Explorer 4 and higher or Netscape 6 and higher....You need local knowledge to get in, stop by, but don't make this place *too* popular....I like my anchoring room.....;-)

 

[Peter J. Brennan]

What happened to the Sand Hole

was the enviro freaks, or more precisely, bird lovers. I liked the Sand Hole at the height of the season BECAUSE it was a loud and noisey party-all-night-with-bonfires-and-rockets place. Then the bird people blocked it all off for most of the summer because of the Piping Plovers and a couple of other species (with an osprey nest in the middle and helicopters flying over at 50 feet, no less). No landing, no picnics, no tents, no dogs, etc. I recall when it was wall to wall boats there on holiday weekends. No more.But I also love the Sand Hole in early spring and late fall when there may be only two or three other boats and all is quiet and serene. Labor Day this year was exceptional because of the weather. By Monday, we were the only boat and there were never more than four.Seen some wild raft breakups, motor boats fouled, people dragging, etc. Holding can be problematic. Also where you anchor. You can be high and dry. Best time to go in or out is at dead low tide. Then you know where the water is, if any. Favorite recreation at sunset: watching strange sailboats come in and suddenly stop.They invented the words "local knowledge" for this place.As for the shellfish, everybody goes after the clams, including the professionals, who are in there now digging away. Few go for the oysters. But they are superb fat wild oysters just lying on the beach at low tide -- or used to be.Perhaps we will find you there next season. Our boat is in semi-commission, so we will be there early.

 

[Ed Boswell]

Leave No Trace...

The backpacker's mantra, why not the sailor's? All of the problems that have been brought up are our own responsibility in some form or another. We produce the sewage that needs to treated, we leave the oil spots and lawn fertilizers that run off into lakes, we use the animals that produce the agricultural run-off, and I can't imagine that the aluminum extrusion and fiberglassing that goes into sailboat construction does not produce any harmful substances. Why lobby to discharge additional materials from boats? Granted, over-zealous environmentalists can seem unreasonable but without them there would be even less resistance to industrial polluters of which the US is proportionally the largest.Too bad holystones can't be used on fiberglass decks.Leave only wakes, take only memories.

 

[Rick Webb]

Do Backpacker Pack Out Their Poop?

Or maybe their stuff don't stink.

 

[David Foster]

Packin' the poop

It's my understanding that in some parks, you must pack your poop. I think Grand Canyon is one.I recommend the book, "How to Shit in the Woods" if you are really interested.DavidLady Lillie

 

[Mike I.]

Yes, Poop is packed

My wife went white water rafting on the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon, and Yes, every ounce of poop was packed out. I've gone camping around California and yes, I packed out my poop. Porta Potties are great for that and for back packing a plastic baggie works fine, even though s slit trench is envoronmentally friendly.

 

[Rick D]

Gee, Guys, Thanks For Sharing...

... ;^ Rick D.

 

[Rick Webb]

I Weren't Kidding, Honest

I knew that mountain climbers brought it all down from the mountain as it would just stay frozen and never go away way up there. I had never hiked a park that addressed this. But I had not backpacked recreationally for a long time. "Camped Out" quite a bit with the military and you would be amazed at the regulations and manuals covering this subject. One pitch moonless cold cloudy night in Texas while out on patrol I had dug my trench and assumed the position when an Armadillo ran right through my legs, scared the you know what right out of me. Funny the things you remember.Guess until we can teach the bears to use a toilet, the mountain lions to use a litter box, and the cows to scratch at the door for us to follow them out and scoop it up the boaters and campers are going to get the blame for any coliforms that show up in the water.

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

I recommend we investigate further

'Cuz I've been led to believe that hikers and backpackers bury their waste...that most carry little trowels just for that purpose. Some go out for weeks at a time...it does not make sense that they'd do anything else! Nor does it make any sense that PEOPLE on pack mule trips into the Grand Canyon would have to carry THEIR waste out, but not their mules'.Btw, those who use the "nutrient loading" argument as a reason to oppose the use of Type I and II MSDs (treatment devices) should see the photo in the link below...and then see the one I'll attach to a reply following this one

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

2nd photo

See link below.

 

[Ed Boswell]

No. 2

I think the Grand Canyon distinction is that "it" will not decompose if buried in such dry climates due to reduced microbial activity -either that or it's a big Forest Service practical joke. However, in more temperate climates, burying "it" about 6" deep is acceptable as it will quickly decompose due to microbial activity as mentioned in a previous response. You are also supposed to burn the t.p. before you cover it up (stand up first), acceptable alternatives are leaves, rocks or armadillo. The photos of the geese are incredible, but I'm pretty sure geese only poop on golf course greens.

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

It doesn't have to make any sense...

If "it" from humans couldn't decompose in a dry climate, nothing else could either...dead trees and animals wouldn't decompose, they'd just mummify...neither would animal "it"--and there's a LOT of wildlife in the Canyon. If nothing could decompose, there wouldn't be much of a canyon...it would be full of the accumulated remains of several millenia worth of dead animal and vegetable matter."...I'm pretty sure geese only poop on golf course greens."And boat swim platforms (or maybe that's only ducks).

 

[Don Bodemann]

All this from a gray water question??????

Recently saw a bumper sticker that said something like “Environmentalism without fanaticism”. In other words, lets each do our part to take care of the great outdoors so it will still be great for our kids and our kid’s kids, but let’s use common sense. I don't agree with the environmentalist wack-o's who justify extremes with results. Do we really need silly laws to compensate for lawbreakers?Don (not wearing a mask) Bodemann

 

[Steve Dion]

Dog doo cigars.

Ed:Let me tell you about dog doo in a dry climate. Within about 48 hours they are hard. Within about 96 hours they are probably 30% of the original size. Within 2 weeks, they crumble when you pick it up. By this time the flys do not even care about them. I have no personal experience with Human doo, but you can probably expect similar results. Please do not try this at home.<g>It is just a thing with the forest service. I have no idea what they do with the donkey doo.

 

[Peter J. Brennan]

Which reminds me of a joke

Q: How do dog poop and women resemble one another?A: (Sorry. Not politically correct and somebody would jump all over me.)

 

[hp]

numbers of people

Most of the poop problems come from the numbers of people involved. We kayaked Okefenokee last spring. They required you to pack out your poop. Fortunately our campsite had a outhouse and we didn't have to bag it!!! I don't know if they were protecting the swamp or Jacksonville's water supply,both?? I used to backpack and burying poop works in lightly used areas. But around popular campsites it can get quite messy. A big problem is that backpackers have to drink out of springs and campsites are usually near springs!!!! While sailing on Kentucky lake we stopped at a graveyard. It was covered in unburied poop around the headstones. I assume that most bass boats don't have holding tanks or porti potti's. It was sickening and we quickly got back on the boat. I can't imagine pooping on someones grave. Even the immortal words "when you gotta go you gotta go" don't excuse such behavior. All of my other boats used porti potti's I have no idea how many gallons you need for a holding tank. One guy told me that when his tank got full he just sailed out to deep water to dump. Is that common practice???? It doesn't sound nice but I guess it does very little harm in the open ocean.

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

It does no harm

And it's quite legal to dump tank in the ocean as long as you're at least 3 miles out to sea from the nearest land.

 

[Tom Monroe]

what about the chemicals?

On that sailing out to deep water to dump thing ...I understand that "human discharge" should not cause a problem ... but what about the holding tank chemicals? On my boat, someone uses a porta potty about once every two years, so it's no big deal. (I don't ask what they do when the swim ladder is down!) But I also use a motorhome alot, and there was a big stink (sorry) about the environmental effect of the black water waste treatment chemicals, many of which are used for the same purpose on sailboat holding tanks. I think it's the Formaldehyde that's the major culprit.Regardless of law, is it environmentally acceptable to go offshore and dump a tank flavored with this stuff?Tom MonroeCarlyle Lake