Overboard discharge from marine head ...

Stu Jackson · Oct 2, 2014

Because we've had this discussion so many times before and regardless of whether the laws make sense or not (to you, me or anyone else), once it is held in a tank onboard, it is illegal to discharge it.

sesmith · Oct 2, 2014

In NY, at least, no discharge zone means no discharge of any kind. So at least here, it's pretty cut and dry. I've heard that boats are sometimes checked to make sure the discharge valve is disabled, but we have never been (ours is permanently disabled). I've also heard that they are especially particular about this in Canadian waters (we've never been checked up there either).

From the NY state DEC website:

"A No Discharge Zone designation means that it is illegal for boaters to discharge on-board sewage into the designated waterbody. This includes treated sewage, as well as untreated sewage. Boaters must instead dispose of their sewage at pumpout stations."

and from the federal regulations there's this:

"A “No Discharge Zone” is a body of water where the discharge of
treated or untreated sewage is prohibited. When operating a vessel
in a No Discharge Zone, the operator must secure the device in a
manner that prevents any discharge. Some acceptable methods are:
padlocking overboard discharge valves in the closed position, using
a non-releasable wire tie to hold overboard discharge valves in the
closed position, closing overboard discharge valves and removing
the handle, and locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets.
Note: these methods for preventing the overboard discharge are only
required when operating in a No Discharge Zone. State and local laws
may place further restrictions on overboard discharges. "

Gunni · Oct 2, 2014

Because...you ARE managing waste and you DO NOT have a viable treatment MSD. It isn't the job of law enforcement to sort out your protestations that "it's just pee". Of course you could install a discharge point-source analyzer to prove your point...spend a fortune and a day in district court and possibly convince a judge of your essential correctness. Or go sailing.

Anonymous 121765 · Oct 2, 2014

Scott,

I have it easier, I go offshore & can discharge after three miles past the Colregs. Mostly #1's, I don't have #2's unless someone onboard has an emergency. I treat my tank per spec however inland, there's the possibility of a hefty fine.

Besides who would flush where they swim? Here's some reading material for you pal:

http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/vwd/
http://dbw.ca.gov/Pubs/FedMSD/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_ship_pollution_in_the_United_States

CR

Anonymous 121765 · Oct 2, 2014

Scott,

Thinking about it, I believe all inland waters have a REG that states, you have to use a pump-out station, no overboard pumping.

CR

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2014

Scott,

You may be right (or close to it) from a practical standpoint, but that will not get you anywhere with the law.

SO, It's OK to pee off your boat into the lake. But pee into a clean glass, and pour it into the lake, and you are in violation.

This is really about creating a clear, easily enforceable law.

Ron20324 · Oct 2, 2014

Stu Jackson said:
Because we've had this discussion so many times before and regardless of whether the laws make sense or not (to you, me or anyone else), once it is held in a tank onboard, it is illegal to discharge it.

And it is still "sewage"- kind of like "disco" :naughty:

woodster · Oct 2, 2014

Jackdaw said:
Scott,

You may be right (or close to it) from a practical standpoint, but that will not get you anywhere with the law.

SO, It's OK to pee off your boat into the lake. But pee into a clean glass, and pour it into the lake, and you are in violation.

This is really about creating a clear, easily enforceable law.

if you mind your manners and use a glass you get a fine for polluting if you do it direct and they catch you get sited with indecent exposure and of course as i always say "it how big a bind you are in"

Don S/V ILLusion · Oct 2, 2014

Jackdaw said:
Scott,

You may be right (or close to it) from a practical standpoint, but that will not get you anywhere with the law.

SO, It's OK to pee off your boat into the lake. But pee into a clean glass, and pour it into the lake, and you are in violation.

This is really about creating a clear, easily enforceable law.

In Federal law, it is illegal regardless of whether or not is comes from a container. A prohibited discharge does not, as a prerequisite, have to come from a container. Implementing the law,however, is the issue.

As a practical matter, obtaining evidence identifying the source becomes problematic unless a sample can be obtained from it.

Anonymous 121765 · Oct 2, 2014

Scott,

To play it safe, hopefully there is a Coast Guard Auxiliary station close to you. They can send you the REGS for your area. Different areas have different REGS.

Or, check with your local Marine Patrol or the water Nazi police. They will all have the same REGS. But if you pee or pump overboard, you have to jump in the water first...ha ha!!

CR

Jackdaw · Oct 2, 2014

Don S/V ILLusion said:
In Federal law, it is illegal regardless of whether or not is comes from a container. A prohibited discharge does not, as a prerequisite, have to come from a container. Implementing the law,however, is the issue.

As a practical matter, obtaining evidence identifying the source becomes problematic unless a sample can be obtained from it.

Don,

I've often wondered about that. Can you cite the specific statute? I be interested to see the wording.

Peeing in the water is enshrined in us as kids... while swimming at the beach etc..

While sailing as well. While racing in particular. We have a Sheriff who sails with us and does, along several members of the CG, both active and aux.

EDIT: From a rather authoritative source, I got this:

Should you choose to forget the bucket and urinate or defecate directly into the water—from above it or while in it—you may run afoul of some laws regarding indecent exposure, but you will not be in violation of any marine sanitation law. But urinate or defecate into any piece of equipment installed on the boat for that purpose and flush it directly into the water, and you're in violation of a whole flock of them.

kloudie1 · Oct 2, 2014

Like most things, if you use common sense, courtesy, and don't challenge the LEO, you'll be OK. There is no vigorous enforcement in the sailing grounds around here, except when ya get to Florida. Even there, I've been questioned as to the valve being closed, but i've never been inspected. Not saying it won't happen, just saying that it is not normal practice unless you give the LEO another reason to mess with you.

kito · Oct 2, 2014

Here's an idea. Install a seacock to the side of the hull in the bathroom about waste high. Open it...insert your junk and do your business. No indecent exposure or chance of falling off the boat. Just be fulling retracted before closing valve. After all...they are called seacocks...ha ha ha!

Kings Gambit · Oct 2, 2014

I think the logic is that anything (including pure water) that passes out through the MSD might become contaminated with coliform bacteria; whereas, if it does not pass through the device it would not pick up that contamination. Of course, feces has its own coliforms regardless of whether or not it passes out through the device; but urine doesn't. Nevertheless, "discharge" generally refers to something coming out of a ship's through-hull, and that is what is regulated, in my understanding, under the general definition of "waste." However, I image that dumping of the contents of porti-potties is somehow covered [prohibited] by the regulation even though in essence a pp is just a [square] bucket with a middle partition and a lid.

james295 · Oct 2, 2014

Just tell them you needed more room for beer????
Don't pee in my pool and I won't pee in yours, we all need to do our best to keep our oceans,rivers and lakes clean,common sense .

topcat0399 · Oct 2, 2014

Our head contains almost exclusively Admiral byproducts.

just sayin'...

Rick486 · Oct 2, 2014

kloudie1 said:
Like most things, if you use common sense, courtesy, and don't challenge the LEO, you'll be OK. There is no vigorous enforcement in the sailing grounds around here, except when ya get to Florida. Even there, I've been questioned as to the valve being closed, but i've never been inspected. Not saying it won't happen, just saying that it is not normal practice unless you give the LEO another reason to mess with you.

".....if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound....."

Anonymous 121765 · Oct 2, 2014

So far,

This thread is sounding more about, "By guess & by golly".
I only suggested to check the REGS for your area. When I think of what fish do in the water yea, it sounds like a non-issue, but the law sees it differently. Scott asked about his area but, this site has owners that sail/boat all over the place. Different locales, different REGS.

That being said, what with all the weekend warrior boaters here in Florida & fatality rates, a simple pee off the boat or tank overboard discharge can wreak some bad effects.

Let us say, your local enforcement agency watches you relieve yourself or, see the telltale signs of overboard waste pumping. This may clearly evidenced by the white toilet paper pieces trailing behind you. This may get you noticed, maybe not, especially on a weekend when the boat traffic is in full swing & enforcement is out there too.

Now to this, lets add some cockpit glasses, bottles or cans of the bubbly. No one needs to be inebriated but, now you may stand out more so. So enforcement comes alongside. Then depending on what they perceive (or the secret NON-existing weekend quota they must adhere to), maybe they wish to board your boat under the guise of a, "SAFETY CHECK".

OK, are your papers in order, does the captain look like he may be over the bubbly limit? Are the passengers acting likewise? Now, on to the safety checks, flotation devices for all followed by inspecting your garbage bag to see if there may be evidence of large quantities of, "The Bubbly" being consumed. If you exhibit some attitude, they may do a more thorough inspection. Then they may ALSO ask you to disclose any firearms onboard, hence another inspection.

So, let's just add this up, your stopped, you're asked permission to come aboard, your asked to disclose any firearms, your inspected for your safety equipment including expiration dates of any flares & on & on & on. Then, they feed this thru their "Homeland Security" database to see if you MAY have a any other problems not related to boating. Oh, how dreamy!

Remember, if you get a DUI while boating, it effects your driving license also. This is especially problematic for someone with a working captain's license.

Time-wise, this can take up to two hours depending how much you pissed off the boarding party. All the while, their boat bumping alongside your hull may leave marks & put a damper on your day.

If this sounds like a better way to chance waste dumping, or taking a simple WIZ while ignoring local REGS, I wish you well. Me, this can only take away from me & my passengers' enjoyment. If they do CITE you...................?

Oh, & don't forget the possible $$ fine for a boating DUI and/or regulation failure. I believe that nationwide, the alcohol legal limit is 0.8 .

Honestly I can say, when you have to go, you have to go. Just don't do it where people are in the water or close to shore or, where SMOKEY may be watching for anything to make his day. Storm water/chemical pumping is by far the worst, A little pee never hurt anyone but, the law is the law. Just know the REGS to insure a great day of boating.

CR