I tried using the search button...No hits for "outboard"...I don't think it works.... I have a couple of questions... I have a 72 V2-24...I am COMPLETELY new to this, but I am learning fast! I fully intent to be sailing next summer... 1st question...Do you find, on a boat on the mid 20 foot size, that you wish you had a small manual windlass? Or do you just pull the rode up and its no big deal? 2nd question...What size outboard is ideal for a 24ft sailboat, with a target weight of around 3000#s? (loaded) I know that everything is a trade off...How big is too big? How small is too small? (OK, OK so I've got 4 questions, lol) Thanks! Skip
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For the record...The original brochure says that the max is 10HP...But I would like to hear from someone from the real world... THX again. Skip
For the record...The original brochure says that the max is 10HP...But I would like to hear from someone from the real world... THX again. Skip
4-6 hp
4-6 hp is pleanty for an outboard for a boat this size, and still light enough to "easily" attach/remove it to/from the boat. I have a 5 HP Honda and it moves the boat very briskly, even into a headwind, and most of the time I don't need full throttle to do it. I have a 21, which is about 2100 lbs fully loaded. I'd say it takes the boat to hull speed, but I don't know for sure because I don't have a knotmeter. Make sure you get a long shaft (20+ inches). My Honda is a short shaft, and while it works OK with the outboard bracket lowered all the way, in any waves larger than 1 foot, it pops above the water for a second each wave. I don't consider it safe for being out on the ocean; if anything bad happened and I needed to get back to the harbor using the motor, I don't think my short shaft motor would get me there quickly or reliably. So I'm currently in the market for a new one with a longer shaft. Nissan/Tohatsu offers an ultra-long shaft (25") 6 HP outboard that I'm eyeing...
4-6 hp is pleanty for an outboard for a boat this size, and still light enough to "easily" attach/remove it to/from the boat. I have a 5 HP Honda and it moves the boat very briskly, even into a headwind, and most of the time I don't need full throttle to do it. I have a 21, which is about 2100 lbs fully loaded. I'd say it takes the boat to hull speed, but I don't know for sure because I don't have a knotmeter. Make sure you get a long shaft (20+ inches). My Honda is a short shaft, and while it works OK with the outboard bracket lowered all the way, in any waves larger than 1 foot, it pops above the water for a second each wave. I don't consider it safe for being out on the ocean; if anything bad happened and I needed to get back to the harbor using the motor, I don't think my short shaft motor would get me there quickly or reliably. So I'm currently in the market for a new one with a longer shaft. Nissan/Tohatsu offers an ultra-long shaft (25") 6 HP outboard that I'm eyeing...
anchor weight
Forgot to address the anchor question. Yes, hauling one up by hand is annoying and tiring if you have to re-set your anchor a few times, but I can't imagine spending enough money and compromising deck space to install a windlass unless I was seriously unable to lift the anchor myself. Try it a few times and see how you do.
Forgot to address the anchor question. Yes, hauling one up by hand is annoying and tiring if you have to re-set your anchor a few times, but I can't imagine spending enough money and compromising deck space to install a windlass unless I was seriously unable to lift the anchor myself. Try it a few times and see how you do.
THX
Thanks Mike! The old brochure says that a tenHP is the max...But I would think that there might be some issues with small outboards being lighter than they were in '72 for a given HP...The reason I am asking, is that I have access to a Evinrude 15, but I dont want to waste horses, or damage the boat... Considering the commonplace of the trusty old 9.9...I will probably start looking for one of those. As far as the windlass goes...I will probably wait and see how it is...But I would love to hear from others! SKip
Thanks Mike! The old brochure says that a tenHP is the max...But I would think that there might be some issues with small outboards being lighter than they were in '72 for a given HP...The reason I am asking, is that I have access to a Evinrude 15, but I dont want to waste horses, or damage the boat... Considering the commonplace of the trusty old 9.9...I will probably start looking for one of those. As far as the windlass goes...I will probably wait and see how it is...But I would love to hear from others! SKip
8 would be better
Have a Nissan 8hp on my 1978 Venture 25. In rougher water and with strong winds in the opposite direction of where you need to go, a five would be a bit small in my opinion. I can still lift my 8hp motor without difficulty. Its about 65 lbs I think. For lake sailing (Not Great Lake)smaller is fine, but my experience with my 25 says 8 has been just barely enough a few times. I primarily sail in the Chesapeake with this one, but a few times it has thrown weather at me that would not have allowed me to return to my slip on the West River without the 8hp. 25 knot winds blowing into the dock is one example. Extremely difficult to manuever with just sail in confined spaces and with the wind wrong and strong, you can find yourself in trouble if under powered. 9.9hp is very common for 25's. The motor mount and the transom on these boats is not designed for much more than that. I small lake sail with my Nordica N-16 with no motor at all but rarely do small lakes make big waves. Big winds are bad enough, but not as troublesome as big waves which will take all the power you can muster to overcome them.
Have a Nissan 8hp on my 1978 Venture 25. In rougher water and with strong winds in the opposite direction of where you need to go, a five would be a bit small in my opinion. I can still lift my 8hp motor without difficulty. Its about 65 lbs I think. For lake sailing (Not Great Lake)smaller is fine, but my experience with my 25 says 8 has been just barely enough a few times. I primarily sail in the Chesapeake with this one, but a few times it has thrown weather at me that would not have allowed me to return to my slip on the West River without the 8hp. 25 knot winds blowing into the dock is one example. Extremely difficult to manuever with just sail in confined spaces and with the wind wrong and strong, you can find yourself in trouble if under powered. 9.9hp is very common for 25's. The motor mount and the transom on these boats is not designed for much more than that. I small lake sail with my Nordica N-16 with no motor at all but rarely do small lakes make big waves. Big winds are bad enough, but not as troublesome as big waves which will take all the power you can muster to overcome them.
2 stroke vs 4 stroke
When discussing outboards, it's also necessary to choose between 2 and 4 stroke. The advantages of two-stroke are that they are lighter (for a given power), cheaper, and easier to repair. The advantages of four-strokes are that they consume far less gas than a two-stroke, they are quieter, they don't require you to mix oil in the fuel, and they pollute a lot less. That last point can be very important depending on what your local laws are like. Here in California, some lakes (mostly reservoirs, that I've seen) won't let you on the water unless you have an engine that has at least a two-star CA air resource board rating. Most of these engines are fourstrokes, but also direct-injected two-stroke engines. However, the only direct injected two-stroke engiens I've seen are 50 HP and up, so for your purposes the point is moot. Anyway, a four stroke 8 horsepower outboard is going to weigh in at 85-100 lbs depending on manufacturer. I assume that frogvalley's outboard is a two-stroke, judging by the weight. A 9.9 is going to weigh about the same as an 8 horsepower, so weight shouldn't stop you from getting the bigger engine. Personally, I wouldn't want to lift an outboard weighing much more than 65 lbs up onto my boat every time I take it out. I don't keep my engine on my boat though, so if you would be doing that, maybe the added weight isn't that big of a deal. If you can find a well-cared-for older two stroke, and don't mind the noise or smell, it'd be the best from a performance, weight and cost standpoint. On the other hand, "The California Air Resources Board found that a seven-hour ride on a personal watercraft powered by a conventional two-stroke engine produces the same amount of smog-forming emissions as over 100,000 miles driven in a modern passenger car." Even if an 8 horsepower two-stroke outboard makes 1/20th the emissions of the PWC engine, which is a stretch, that's still a lot of emissions.
When discussing outboards, it's also necessary to choose between 2 and 4 stroke. The advantages of two-stroke are that they are lighter (for a given power), cheaper, and easier to repair. The advantages of four-strokes are that they consume far less gas than a two-stroke, they are quieter, they don't require you to mix oil in the fuel, and they pollute a lot less. That last point can be very important depending on what your local laws are like. Here in California, some lakes (mostly reservoirs, that I've seen) won't let you on the water unless you have an engine that has at least a two-star CA air resource board rating. Most of these engines are fourstrokes, but also direct-injected two-stroke engines. However, the only direct injected two-stroke engiens I've seen are 50 HP and up, so for your purposes the point is moot. Anyway, a four stroke 8 horsepower outboard is going to weigh in at 85-100 lbs depending on manufacturer. I assume that frogvalley's outboard is a two-stroke, judging by the weight. A 9.9 is going to weigh about the same as an 8 horsepower, so weight shouldn't stop you from getting the bigger engine. Personally, I wouldn't want to lift an outboard weighing much more than 65 lbs up onto my boat every time I take it out. I don't keep my engine on my boat though, so if you would be doing that, maybe the added weight isn't that big of a deal. If you can find a well-cared-for older two stroke, and don't mind the noise or smell, it'd be the best from a performance, weight and cost standpoint. On the other hand, "The California Air Resources Board found that a seven-hour ride on a personal watercraft powered by a conventional two-stroke engine produces the same amount of smog-forming emissions as over 100,000 miles driven in a modern passenger car." Even if an 8 horsepower two-stroke outboard makes 1/20th the emissions of the PWC engine, which is a stretch, that's still a lot of emissions.
Motor
I have a 6HP Merc 2 stroke on my M-25 and it is more than adequate on the inland lake I sail. I've even used it to power out five miles to find wind. I don't know that it would have quite enough thrust though if I wanted to do some coastal exploring with some real current. I'd likely see if I could borrow a 9.9 before doing that. I seem to see anywhere from 4HP to 9.9 on all the 26 ft. and smaller boats at my marina, with the exception of a couple of Hunter 260's with 15HP's on them. As far as a windlass, you really don't need it for the light ground tackle we use on this size boat. If you really manage to hook the anchor into the mud, under a large rock, or tree snag, walk the rode back to your genoa winch and winch it out. I've done it before. BTW- there is an excellent anchor test in this months Sail magazine, the results were pretty surprising to me.
I have a 6HP Merc 2 stroke on my M-25 and it is more than adequate on the inland lake I sail. I've even used it to power out five miles to find wind. I don't know that it would have quite enough thrust though if I wanted to do some coastal exploring with some real current. I'd likely see if I could borrow a 9.9 before doing that. I seem to see anywhere from 4HP to 9.9 on all the 26 ft. and smaller boats at my marina, with the exception of a couple of Hunter 260's with 15HP's on them. As far as a windlass, you really don't need it for the light ground tackle we use on this size boat. If you really manage to hook the anchor into the mud, under a large rock, or tree snag, walk the rode back to your genoa winch and winch it out. I've done it before. BTW- there is an excellent anchor test in this months Sail magazine, the results were pretty surprising to me.
yep
Yeah, I read it a couple of days ago...It WAS very interesting...It is what got me thinking about the windlass...
Yeah, I read it a couple of days ago...It WAS very interesting...It is what got me thinking about the windlass...
Prop and shaft lenght
The pitch of the prop and the shaft length are more important than the HP. You need a shaft long enough to keep the prop in the water, or it doesn't matter how much HP you have. And to convert that HP into forward motion you will soon become aware that the pitch of the prop makes a big difference. High pitched props come on so many out boards because they are usually put on a row boat, and speed is the reason for more HP. With a displacement hull you can't go any faster than your hull speed without getting a really big engine, and that won't work on your bracket. A 4 HP with the right prop will take you to hull speed. An 8 or larger will most likely have a high pitched prop., unless it was made as a kicker for a sail boat (sail drive etc.) This means that at full throttle the prop will be turning for 15-20 knots (which your boat won't be doing) so it will cavitate. But with a lower pitch, the same engine will move you at hull speed with plenty of thrust to push your boat against a head wind, or tow a buddy in. As far as going against a current, it's speed through the water that counts, and you will only be doing hull speed, more HP won't help. Keep in mind, the more weight you hang off the transom, the more it will effect you ability to point.(sail close to the wind) Keep the engine light if you can. I like the Tohatsu 6 HP with the extra long shaft. 1, for the extra long shaft, and 2, because it comes with a charging curcuit for my batteries. Do get a lower pitched prop than it comes with. By dropping the pitch just 1" you will get much more thrust out of it and it will back a whole lot better. As for ground tackel, I carry a 5 lb danforth high tensel and a small 5 lb claw. Both work great, and both have 6 foot of chain. The danforth is my #1 anchor and hold very well in almost any bottom. I also carry a 5 lb folding grappel, this is the only one that works on rocks, though both the danforth and claw will snagg a rock and hold, they don't reset fast on this kind of bottom. Oh use a trip line when anchorring on this kind of bottom too, or you may lose you anchor.
The pitch of the prop and the shaft length are more important than the HP. You need a shaft long enough to keep the prop in the water, or it doesn't matter how much HP you have. And to convert that HP into forward motion you will soon become aware that the pitch of the prop makes a big difference. High pitched props come on so many out boards because they are usually put on a row boat, and speed is the reason for more HP. With a displacement hull you can't go any faster than your hull speed without getting a really big engine, and that won't work on your bracket. A 4 HP with the right prop will take you to hull speed. An 8 or larger will most likely have a high pitched prop., unless it was made as a kicker for a sail boat (sail drive etc.) This means that at full throttle the prop will be turning for 15-20 knots (which your boat won't be doing) so it will cavitate. But with a lower pitch, the same engine will move you at hull speed with plenty of thrust to push your boat against a head wind, or tow a buddy in. As far as going against a current, it's speed through the water that counts, and you will only be doing hull speed, more HP won't help. Keep in mind, the more weight you hang off the transom, the more it will effect you ability to point.(sail close to the wind) Keep the engine light if you can. I like the Tohatsu 6 HP with the extra long shaft. 1, for the extra long shaft, and 2, because it comes with a charging curcuit for my batteries. Do get a lower pitched prop than it comes with. By dropping the pitch just 1" you will get much more thrust out of it and it will back a whole lot better. As for ground tackel, I carry a 5 lb danforth high tensel and a small 5 lb claw. Both work great, and both have 6 foot of chain. The danforth is my #1 anchor and hold very well in almost any bottom. I also carry a 5 lb folding grappel, this is the only one that works on rocks, though both the danforth and claw will snagg a rock and hold, they don't reset fast on this kind of bottom. Oh use a trip line when anchorring on this kind of bottom too, or you may lose you anchor.
prop pitch
Greg, thanks for the good info on prop pitch. I didn't know this before. So what size prop would you recommend for that Tohatsu 6 HP? It comes with a 7.7" diameter 8" pitch prop, but you can get a 7" or 6" pitch prop. I would think 7" for my boat, a 21, as it's in the recommended weight range for the 7", 1500-3000 lbs. But what about for a 24? Its more borderline. In case anybody cares, I contacted Nissan about the weight of the 6 HP ultra-long shaft outboard. It's 59 lbs, vs the short-shaft's 55 lbs. I figured that the extra length and the alternator has to add a decent amount of weight to the "base" short-shaft model, and while it's not THAT much more, 4 extra pounds is noticibly heavier. But still lighter than my 5 HP Honda.
Greg, thanks for the good info on prop pitch. I didn't know this before. So what size prop would you recommend for that Tohatsu 6 HP? It comes with a 7.7" diameter 8" pitch prop, but you can get a 7" or 6" pitch prop. I would think 7" for my boat, a 21, as it's in the recommended weight range for the 7", 1500-3000 lbs. But what about for a 24? Its more borderline. In case anybody cares, I contacted Nissan about the weight of the 6 HP ultra-long shaft outboard. It's 59 lbs, vs the short-shaft's 55 lbs. I figured that the extra length and the alternator has to add a decent amount of weight to the "base" short-shaft model, and while it's not THAT much more, 4 extra pounds is noticibly heavier. But still lighter than my 5 HP Honda.
Where to Sail?
PT, when you are looking at shaft length, you need to know where you will be sailing. If on lakes, short is usually OK, depending on the boat, so long as the water is below the level plate. On the ocean, the longer the better because of the swells and waves. Tohatsu puts an ultra long shaft on some of its motors.
PT, when you are looking at shaft length, you need to know where you will be sailing. If on lakes, short is usually OK, depending on the boat, so long as the water is below the level plate. On the ocean, the longer the better because of the swells and waves. Tohatsu puts an ultra long shaft on some of its motors.
prop
I would go with the lower pitch if in doubt. Too low of a pitch only lowers your top speed. Too high of a pitch will reduce your thrust. Thrust is what pushes your boat through the water and into head winds, or gives you that extra pull if you need to tow a buddy. Too much pitch also means that if you give it too much throttle, you will cavitatae instaed of getting the responce you need right then. Also a lower pitch will allow you to maintain a lower speed at idel. Nice in tight areas, and a lot easier on the engine than kicking it in and out of gear to maintain a low speed.
I would go with the lower pitch if in doubt. Too low of a pitch only lowers your top speed. Too high of a pitch will reduce your thrust. Thrust is what pushes your boat through the water and into head winds, or gives you that extra pull if you need to tow a buddy. Too much pitch also means that if you give it too much throttle, you will cavitatae instaed of getting the responce you need right then. Also a lower pitch will allow you to maintain a lower speed at idel. Nice in tight areas, and a lot easier on the engine than kicking it in and out of gear to maintain a low speed.
ps prop
Oh, and I have the 23' and use the 6" pitch prop. and my other has a 3.5" 4 bladed prop on a British Seagull, about a 1.5 HP motor that will tow another boat with no problem. And still makes 3.5 knots, even into a head wind towing.
Oh, and I have the 23' and use the 6" pitch prop. and my other has a 3.5" 4 bladed prop on a British Seagull, about a 1.5 HP motor that will tow another boat with no problem. And still makes 3.5 knots, even into a head wind towing.
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