Outboard gas vs inboard diesel - A comprehensive approach

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Oct 9, 2008
1,742
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
I believe this topic has been discussed many times prior, however not in a direct approach in terms of actual originating boat design. IE: medium\large sailboats at production time.

The inclusion of an inboard diesel engine on larger sailboats has become a given. To exclude this version of auxilary power on a boat over 27 feet would raise eyebrows and flutter lips in contempt, as this has been established as the norm for larger sailboat design.

That said, can we look at the fundamental benefits and limitations of both, in an open minded analysis of coastal cruising boats. Extracting vessels specifically designed for offshore use which would be designed to expect heavy seas.

Speed:
An outboard can be tilted up, removing the prop, shaft and skeg from the water flow. This can increase speed as much as a half knot depending on conditions and boat config.
With the inboard, even if you install a $1,000 folding prop you still have skeg and prop shaft drag.
Weight reduction would be significant, however it would move a slight amount to the transom, which should be compensated for in the design\ballast, etc.

Dead battery:
If all batteries should be rendered incapable of starting the engine, a (up to about 20hp) outboard can be pull started, thereby returning propulsion and charging the batteries.

Tangles:
Prop tangles with traps and seaweed, etc, can slow or even stop an inboard. The latter of which may require a dive to untangle. An outboard can be tilted and the foul easily cleared.

Vector thrust:
An inboard is dependent upon the rudder for steerage, sans some prop walk in some circumstances which can be used. However an outboard, while usually locked and stationary and using the rudder in the same fashion as an inboard, can be unlocked and vector power used to drive a large sailboat like a dinghy, getting in and out of tight situations safely.

Odors:
The inside of many inboard vessels reeks of diesel. The inside of an outboard powered boat smells like rum teak oil.

Maintenance access and cost:
On an outboard, the cooling system (+no risers), exhaust, oil, fuel hoses, shaft, zincs, etc are outside and easy to access. Annual service on a 20hp Honda is $183.

Safety:
With an outboard, there are no oil, coolant, fuel or exhaust leaks that can escape into the bilge or cabin. Also, no shaft packing to leak. Gasoline can be raised as a safety issue, however with the tank located outside the cabin, IE: under a cockpit seat in a fuel tank-designed lazzerette containing a 12 gallon tank, vapor and explosion risk becomes minimal, much less than the combination of common inboard safety issues listed above.

Noise:
With a quiet engine on the transom, cabin noise is reduced to a low rumble, and not the tractor racket heard in many diesel powered boats.

Initial cost:
Installing an outboard in lieu of inboard diesel would save about $10,000 off the boat's price. This would likely reduce the resale amount by that much of course, but this fact is irrelevant.

Appearance:
An outboard generally spoils the lines of the transom. A minor Aesthetics problem when compared to the advantages.

Sea State:
As mentioned previously, the outboard concept applies to coastal vessels. That said, an outboard can very easily exit the water depending on seastate, causing an overev at worst or a slowing of momentum. This is more or less reserved for a boat that is stopped or is traveling slowly in short frequency high chop. Once momentum is gained, the boat plows ahead and keeps the motor in the water unless the seas are abnormal for coastal conditions. Also, if the seas are rough you can predict that the wind will be good as well, in which case the sails would make better engines. In any case if the weather is predicted to be reminiscent of offshore storms, a coastal boat skipper should probaly stay in the harbor anyway.

Conclusion:
If traveling offshore, there is nothing more reassuring than the steady cackling of a diesel engine, not to mention the obvious benefit of a reliably good bite in heavy weather. However if I were ordering a sailboat for coastal cruising, I would seriously investigate opting for an outboard, even in a larger sailing vessel. For example if I ordered a cat 28, 309 or even a 320, I would consider having a 20hp long shaft installed, if they were willing to do so.

Please let me know if this makes sense or if I am a nut case.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Fuel consumption rates are important factors for me. Matching gear ratio and propellor size is easier with an inboard. We have a man in our marina that repowered with an outboard when his 2 cycle sail drive died.
I believe that my 5000 dollar Volvo diesel will last longer than 5000 dollars worth of 10 hp outboards. Yes it is noisy and I wish that I didn't feel the need for an engine but I am still standing with one foot on the shore.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
Well

Even on and EASY to move J24 with a long shaft and a MOUNT that puts it DEEP in the water rough water performance is marginal at best

Which makes it a good thing the boat can point well with only a double reefed main casue you would be screwed if you had to depend even on the 6 hp OMC twin motor i use to have


The current "MODERN" 1 cylinder outboard i have now allways has a PITA vibration and the 2 cylinder motors are really heavy


Northport harbor which is pretty well protected can be a NASTY in any northeaster
 
N

NC-C320

It's power delivered in choppy water

When I had my Kells 28 on order years ago, I specifically asked that they not install the standard diesel inboard, because I was going to save some money....as is the post originator's objective.

At a July 4 cruise gathering in Belhaven, NC (on a coastal creek), the wind began to pickup and boats tied to the bulkhead decided they needed to move away to a more safe spot. A Cape Dory 26 with outboard struggled to get away from the dock and out into the water. It was impossible, just when it looked like he might pull it off, his position relative to the waves would change and the outboard motor started continuously popping out the water, with all the over reving and noise. He gave it up and returned to the bulkhead, where if he had stayed, he would have ultimately been damaged. An Islander 28 nearby had a inboard diesel. He moved away with no problem. But having seen the trouble the Cape Dory was having, he and the Cape Dory skipper agreed on a plan. The Islander came alongside the Cape Dory (fender in between) tied spring lines fore and aft, bow, stern lines to the Cape Dory. Then, almost seemingly with no effort, the Islander pulled away with the Cape Dory tied alongside and moved both boats to a secure spot.

On the next working day, I call the Kells factory and told them to forget the outboard motor mount. Instead I had them install the diesel.

There is no comparison. Coastal water gets rough quite frequently, and generally with a shallower bottom in many cases, the waves are close together in a very choppy situation, which is going to keep that outboard coming out of the water lots of the time. And if it's reallly windy, the outboard is not going to do the job. As for sailing in high winds, there will be times when you will choose to use the engine to get somewhere as opposed to hours of beating into the wind.

Go with the inboard if you can afford it, you won't be sorry.
 

Tim R.

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May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
The big drawbacks I see are engine lifting out of the water, gasoline, no refridgeration option and no hot water generation. Sometimes a boat is not able to sail in rough seas; rigging failure. So now you cannot use your OB and are in a bad way. I know of no OBs that heat water. Another downside is the the gasoline. Refridgeration would have to be electric. How big are the alternators on OBs?

Add to the list poor reverse perfomrance.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,041
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I’ll demonstrate my bias by responding to your points..
SPEED .. Because the prop size is limited by the anti-cavitation plate, an outboard will have a problem delivering the “grunt” that an inboard can give. Bigger boats will exaggerate this effect.
DEAD BATT.. Most outboards have wimpy alternators and would not have a chance of putting in a charge on a 400 amp hour bank. Stretching out over the stern would not be safe for rope starting.
TANGLES .. You are correct. Except that accessing a porp on a long shaft outboard that is tilted up is a stretch.
VECTOR THRUST.. again, stretching over the stern to handle the tiller is not safe while docking.. If there is an outboard rudder, a link can be installed to turn the outboard with the rudder.
ODORS .. A fuel system that does not leak will not smell up the boat. Mine does not reek of diesel.
MAINTENANCE ACCESS and COST.. I spend about $40 a year on diesel maintenance. It consists of checking lots of stuff and changing the oil and filter. There are no access problems. I know this is not universally true, but engine access is one of the reasons I bought this boat. Outboards are cooled by seawater which will eventually corrode through the delicate case and block. Diesel cooling systems are designed for salt water. The engine block never sees salt water.
SAFETY.. I agree that the explosion hazard of gasoline can be mitigated, but diesel does not do that. Safety precautions are in order for both fuels.. Explode is what they do for a living ! I worry less about carrying 10 gallons of diesel in the car than I worry about carrying 3 gallons of gasoline for the dink. There is no shaft packing to leak on an inboard but on an outboard, when the prop shaft seal leaks, the gearbox generally gets totaled.
NOISE .. you are right, if talking about a four stroke motor, like a Honda. Newer boats with inboards are MUCH more quiet than older ones.
INITIAL COST .. I don’t think it is as much as $10000 for equivalent horsepower at the propeller. A new Yanmar long shaft with remote and electric start is around $2600 .
APPEARANCE.. I agree with first point. But that is a bias.
SEA STATE.. This one is the biggie.. the push of an inboard against a stout seaway is a good thing. Being constrained to stay in harbor by an outboard is not something I want to deal with.
CONCLUSION.. during coastal cruising, which is what I do, many times I have been motoring and been thankful that I didn’t have to fight with an outboard motor.
I don’t think you are a nut case, I just think that your type of sailing is very different from mine. Both are fine.. but they require different power systems.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
I think a lot of it has to do with the boat in question. There are quite a few multihulls that are capable of shorter bluewater passages that use outboard motors. However, these boats are designed with the outboard motor usage in mind. Multihulls also require less power than a monohull, due to less wetted surface area, lower mass, etc.

Putting an outboard on a boat that wasn't designed for it isn't a good idea IMHO. However, if the boat was designed properly, with the limitations of the outboard in mind, the performance of an outboard, even in heavier sea conditions, can be just fine.

One other major advantage an outboard has is portability. If you need to repair it, you can usually pull it off the boat (at least the ones 20 HP and smaller) with fairly little trouble. Taking it to a repair shop is far less expensive than hiring someone to come out and work on it on the boat, which is usually the case with in-board engines. Also, replacing an outboard, in the case of damage or age, is far simpler than replacing an inboard engine.
 

Tom J

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Sep 30, 2008
2,309
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
Whether you opt for the outboard or the diesel may depend entirely on the tlype of sailing you do. If you are considering daysailing, even with a larger boat, the outboard is the ideal choice (especially a 4-cycle). If you are interested in cruising, even 'just' coastal cruising, you'll probalby be better off with the inboard diesel.
Daysailing in the Boston area on my O'Day 23 was a lot of fun, but more than once, we'd be fighting the tide to get home, with no wind, and the monster wakes from those big boats would have that outboard popping out of the water. Yes, it was a long shaft, on a low riding mount.
Then there was the time we were motorsailing my Catalina 310 against the wind and tide in Chesapeake Bay, making 2 knots against those short, steep waves, and I was glad I had the inboard diesel.
Make no mistake about, coastal cruising will involve all the elements of ocean cruising, whether you plan on it, or not!
 
Jun 8, 2004
550
Macgregor 26M Delta, B.C. Canada 26M not X
OutBoards

I think a lot of it has to do with the boat in question. There are quite a few multihulls that are capable of shorter bluewater passages that use outboard motors. However, these boats are designed with the outboard motor usage in mind. Multihulls also require less power than a monohull, due to less wetted surface area, lower mass, etc.

Putting an outboard on a boat that wasn't designed for it isn't a good idea IMHO. However, if the boat was designed properly, with the limitations of the outboard in mind, the performance of an outboard, even in heavier sea conditions, can be just fine.

One other major advantage an outboard has is portability. If you need to repair it, you can usually pull it off the boat (at least the ones 20 HP and smaller) with fairly little trouble. Taking it to a repair shop is far less expensive than hiring someone to come out and work on it on the boat, which is usually the case with in-board engines. Also, replacing an outboard, in the case of damage or age, is far simpler than replacing an inboard engine.
I couldn't agree more!
The Macgregor powersailor is a fine example, it was designed for use with an outboard hanging exactly mid stern and it is very effective. Add to it a four blade prop and you get much more thrust with the added surface to water ratio (adds drag too), I am never at a loss for power and rarely does the prop lift out of the water, even in rough seas, it sits about a foot below the lowest point of the transom, same as many inboards. It is a 50HP though so I cannot lift it, therfore I tow it to be serviced if it is something I cannot do myself. So far the dependable Honda has been just that - dependable. With no inboard engine there is considerably more aft interior space. No quarter coffin berth in mine.:D
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,742
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Quick replies to nip buds:
Fuel consumption: Honda 20hp: half a gallon an hour at 3\4 throttle. 20hp diesel: about a third of a gallon an hour.

Longevity: agreed. Replacement cost, etc should be analyzed. I think a good, well maintained and flushed outboard would last 15 years. x2 = 30. Still less than cost of one diesel and a massive amount easier to replace.

Saving money: Not poster's original singular objective. You forgot: Speed, tangles, vector thrust, dead battery, noise, safety, maintenance, odors.

Examples of boats not getting away from dock: My boat is in a protected harbor, not a problem. One poster brilliantly stated that different coastal sailing areas require different setups. Agreed. Possibly I should have limited discussion to Socal.

Refrigeration: Do we need? Ice is cheap. I can keep a block\cube combo equipped box cold for five days in July weather. Remember, Coastal cruising. Ports every 50 miles or so. I think refrigeration may be a power sapping luxury. Of course, if I had it I'd probably change my tune.

Water heating: Electric water heater. Charge at dock 45 minutes, stays hot 24 hours. warm 48 hours. Luke 72 hours. Weekend over. Or, hook up the genny and charge again.

Alternators: Honda 9.9, 15 and 20hp: 12 amps

Reverse performance: Honda has designed rear thrust into their engines. Example: I can hole-shot a 6,000 pound sloop to 3 knots in reverse (don’t want to go faster than that in rev) nearly as quickly as forward with a 9.9hp.

Prop size: Good point regarding larger boats. However I would analyze how much "grunt" is really required given the previous sailing specifications. Many boats from yesteryear had tiny diesel engines. It has only been in the last couple of decades that oversized motors are being installed. I guess people used to sail more.

Problems reaching over the stern to pull start, clear fouls, etc: None on a late model cat (specified previous), the transom is walk through with a step at the base. Steering vector thrust is quite easy. Even more so if you installed a link to the rudder, which I've seen many times. Also, boat hooks work wonders on prop fouls. Last, the pull start would be an emergency option, as the motors have starters. If you didn’t have a pull start IE: inboard, then i guess you wouldn’t have to worry about it. Call a tow.

Seastate: I've coastal cruised a 26 foot boat for years. Been in some nasty crap coming\going to Catalina Island. Nothing comparable to storms offshore, but still hair raising. Motor has never failed me. You have to adjust to the seastate when motoring, but again and from years of experience, the motor will stay planted under most conditions once it is under way. Otherwise, I sail. In my harbor and virtually any west coast harbor south of San Fran, wave action does not exist.

Safety: Again, fuel tank to be located outside the cabin, under a cockpit seat. The fuel hose would be routed directly to the motor, outside the cabin. You’d have to inspect the fuel level with a bic to get it to explode.

Aft interior space without inboard: I forgot about that! Good point.

I like the catamaran response. Just too wide to fit into my slip.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
My diesel sits behing the companion way ladder and partially under the cockpit. It would be difficult to use that space otherwise.
 

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Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
A good example is my boat. The outboard is attached to a "sled" that hangs off the port side of the main hull. This means that the outboard can be raised and lowered, since the sled is hinged. This allows the outboard to sit fairly deep in the water, and I've yet to see it come out and ventilate. The outboard is a long-shaft model, which also helps quite a bit. Using a sled is fairly common on trimarans, but not really an option on monohulls.

Also, the tiller setup on the Telstar 28 has a pin that can be inserted into the tiller stock. When the pin is inserted, the tiller steers both the rudder and the outboard, giving you vectored thrust, without any need to lean over. It's a very elegant solution.

Yet, when sailing, I can tilt the engine forward, and then raise the sled's aft end, and have no drag from the outboard. I can also stow it like this when the boat is at the dock or on the mooring, so that the risk of corrosion damage to the outboard's lower unit is minimized.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,742
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Same boat model with and without inboard. T demostrate added space. Likely not an issue in larger boats, but in this case ads ease of entering\exiting rear berth and securable storage for cockpit tables, trash cans, life vests, and other misc.

1767745_6.jpg

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2019943_6.jpg
 
Jan 22, 2008
146
Macgregor 22 Marina Del Rey, CA CA
On my new 1984, 30' Catalina I had a diesel with a transmission and had lots of problems which included overhauling the diesel as well as overhauling the transmission during the 6 years I owned it. I now have a 1971, 22' Venture with a 1975 6 HP 2 cycle outboard and have never had any problem with it (although it does use more gas). I also had an older 24' sailboat with a 9.9 HP 2 cycle outboard and never had any problem with it either. I am buying a 1975 25' Lancer with a 8 HP, 4 cycle outboard and don't expect any problem with it. Give me a outboard any time for lower operating cost (especially with the 4 cycle) as well as repairs cost!
Duane "novelman"
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
When I was shopping for a boat, I saw a Capri 26. I thought I could be happy with one, but I wouldn't have bought one with out an inboard diesel, because of the mission I had in mind, which was to coastal cruise, or ICW to the bahamas.
I do find it hard to believe, given a choice, anyone would choose an outboard over an inboard diesel. When looking for a boat, I would have prefered an inboard gas, because gas engines were what I knew. Now that I have a diesel there is no way I would want anything else, but a bigger diesel.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
I agree with Benny

An IB outperforms and OB hands down. The only advantage of an OB is cost.

I suppose if one sails inland lakes and never encounters seas above a foot or two, an OB might make sense, but in the big water the IB is always the way to go.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,959
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Outboard Alternator output - myth

Alternators: Honda 9.9, 15 and 20hp: 12 amps
That's without an external regulator and is totally inadequate to charge even a small 200 ah battery bank. This is just the electrical side of things.

I've had a C22 and C25 with Merc 7.5 outboards and loved them. It was great to have the shop do the work. I learned to love our M25 diesel on our C34 and do my own work, so i can trust it.

Seems to be personal preference pretty much related to the size of the boat. 30 foot is pretty much a break even point for the choice, I've seen a few C30s with outboards, but could be related to either cost or complexity of repairs for the skippers. I agree, waves can kick up anywhere.
 

pvanv

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Feb 14, 2009
23
2 HR28 Wilson, NY
It all depends on the boat design, the sort of sailing and mooring you do, and your expectations.

Our boat (Hinterhoeller HR28) was built in 1968, equipped with a wimpy short shaft 9.5 OB in the lazarette. It was able to tilt up and into the boat for racing, which was the primary use of that boat at that time. It was repowered for more horsepower (15) and electric start/remote control in 1973 or 1974. Since the OB's not way back on a bracket, in all but unsettled downwind conditions, the prop stayed pretty much in the water. Lake Ontario gets some ocean-like long-period swells (we call them the rolling pukers:), and it worked OK.

I converted to long shaft and quit tilting about 15 years ago, and since that time, have not experienced any ventilation issues, but the problems that plagued the old 50:1 premix, points-and-condenser 2-smokes of course persisted. Last season, I was offered a deal I could not refuse, and repowered with a 4-stroke 9.8 Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury 9.8 long electric remote with high thrust prop. Works brilliantly. Key start with rope start capability, 6-plus amps charging for our single group 31 battery. Essentially it's an inboard-mounted OB. Portable for service, and backs up like a 57 Chevy. We're on the dock a lot, with a few daysails a week, and about 2 weeks of cruising a season. The setup is more than adequate.

There is a local sistership with Atomic 4. Displacement is a lot higher, likely over 8,000 in cruising dress, and maintenance is a lot more difficult and expensive. I suppose if they repowered with a new "drop-in" Universal diesel, the maintenance and safety would be improved, but I could buy FIVE of my motors for the cost of installing ONE Universal.

Although it has been done, this vessel would not be my first choice for an offshore trip from the Saint Lawrence to Cape Town, with either aux setup. With shore power available, our battery is always topped up, and the little peltier-effect cooler (in addition to the onboard icebox) means that there are cold drinks waiting for us when we arrive at the boat, without complex refrigeration systems.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
As I said... the design has a lot to do with whether an outboard will be suitable. Most designs with transom mounted outboards are going to have issues in heavier sea conditions, since the further from the center of the boat the outboard is, the more it will rise and fall.

It sounds like the HR28 does pretty well, but it doesn't have a transom mounted OB. :)

Inboard engines are also far more complex, far heavier and far more expensive than outboards. There's no need for a stuffing box, cutless bearing, raw water intake through-hull, raw water strainer, water lift muffler, exhaust through hull.

Both have pros and cons... but if the boat isn't designed for it...it's not going to work very well.

It all depends on the boat design, the sort of sailing and mooring you do, and your expectations.

Our boat (Hinterhoeller HR28) was built in 1968, equipped with a wimpy short shaft 9.5 OB in the lazarette. It was able to tilt up and into the boat for racing, which was the primary use of that boat at that time. It was repowered for more horsepower (15) and electric start/remote control in 1973 or 1974. Since the OB's not way back on a bracket, in all but unsettled downwind conditions, the prop stayed pretty much in the water. Lake Ontario gets some ocean-like long-period swells (we call them the rolling pukers:), and it worked OK.

I converted to long shaft and quit tilting about 15 years ago, and since that time, have not experienced any ventilation issues, but the problems that plagued the old 50:1 premix, points-and-condenser 2-smokes of course persisted. Last season, I was offered a deal I could not refuse, and repowered with a 4-stroke 9.8 Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury 9.8 long electric remote with high thrust prop. Works brilliantly. Key start with rope start capability, 6-plus amps charging for our single group 31 battery. Essentially it's an inboard-mounted OB. Portable for service, and backs up like a 57 Chevy. We're on the dock a lot, with a few daysails a week, and about 2 weeks of cruising a season. The setup is more than adequate.

There is a local sistership with Atomic 4. Displacement is a lot higher, likely over 8,000 in cruising dress, and maintenance is a lot more difficult and expensive. I suppose if they repowered with a new "drop-in" Universal diesel, the maintenance and safety would be improved, but I could buy FIVE of my motors for the cost of installing ONE Universal.

Although it has been done, this vessel would not be my first choice for an offshore trip from the Saint Lawrence to Cape Town, with either aux setup. With shore power available, our battery is always topped up, and the little peltier-effect cooler (in addition to the onboard icebox) means that there are cold drinks waiting for us when we arrive at the boat, without complex refrigeration systems.
 
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