My ancient Johnson 9.9 on my O'day 25 finally died last weekend. I went searching for a new engine, and found the selection to be quite limited. The 20" shaft on the Johnson was never long enough, so I'm looking for a 25" and only a few companies make them. I also want a four-stroke. The Tohatsu/Nissan would be perfect, but they're on backorder, and no dealer anywhere seems to have one. I found a Yamaha 9.9 with a 25" shaft locally, but it weighs 100lbs. I don't know what the old Johnson weighs, it's a 1986 model and it feels quite heavy. The Garelick people that make the bracket say it's not for four-stroke engines, yet it's rated for 115lbs. Should I be worried? Is this engine going to either break the bracket or rip the transom off my boat?
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H
Hoosier Kevin
Adding a 4 stroke - 9.9 Yamaha
I am replacing my outboard too - I have a '78 O'Day 25 - There are quite a few forum threads in the recent month that discuss this subject - I would suggest you visit the archives - I am putting on a Garelick ??90 4 stroke bracket - the problem I have had - or - a new opportunity to work on my boat - is dealing with the wedge - because the 4 stroke brackets have a larger footprint - the wedge is too skinny! I am attaching a steel plate with solid 1 inch pressure treated lumber - and to the wedge through the existing holes in the wedge - I needed to work on the wedge because there was some - one hole - that had some rotting of the wood in the wedge - I also drilled the holes bigger - filled with epoxy filler to water proof them - then drilled the appropriate sized holes - attache the new plate to the wedge - and reinforce the inside of the transom with 3/4 in 4"X4" plywood squares - with good size washer - I will also attach the fiberglass washer that was orignally used - they are kind of neat. This has been a much more involved project than I thought it would be! I got the idea fromthe linked web page - look at the bottom of the article - Good luck!
I am replacing my outboard too - I have a '78 O'Day 25 - There are quite a few forum threads in the recent month that discuss this subject - I would suggest you visit the archives - I am putting on a Garelick ??90 4 stroke bracket - the problem I have had - or - a new opportunity to work on my boat - is dealing with the wedge - because the 4 stroke brackets have a larger footprint - the wedge is too skinny! I am attaching a steel plate with solid 1 inch pressure treated lumber - and to the wedge through the existing holes in the wedge - I needed to work on the wedge because there was some - one hole - that had some rotting of the wood in the wedge - I also drilled the holes bigger - filled with epoxy filler to water proof them - then drilled the appropriate sized holes - attache the new plate to the wedge - and reinforce the inside of the transom with 3/4 in 4"X4" plywood squares - with good size washer - I will also attach the fiberglass washer that was orignally used - they are kind of neat. This has been a much more involved project than I thought it would be! I got the idea fromthe linked web page - look at the bottom of the article - Good luck!
M
Mike
Weight and torque are two different things
Outboard brackets have two different limits: weight of the engine; and the ability to handle torque. Brackets generally have a weight limitation printed on them. This number is generally related to the horsepower of the engine as a function of weight, but is mostly relevant to the bracket's ability to move up and down with that weight. Practically speaking, if your engine weighs 100 lbs and the bracket is rated at 115 lbs. it means that the bracket manufacturer expects that the horsepower of the engine will generally be less than 15 hp, and that the spring on the bracket is strong enough to help you lift that weight. None of this has anything to do with torque. Four horse power engines generate more torque than comparably-sized (i.e., same horsepower) two stroke engines. They generate correspondingly more stress on the bracket, which is why brackets are specifically rated to handle four strokes. In short, just because your four stroke weighs less than the stated capacity of the bracket does not mean that the bracket should be used. Using a mis-matched bracket and engine could lead to damaging the bracket, or worse. Kevin's project turned out to be a bigger job than he wanted, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Garelick makes an outboard bracket that fits the original Oday mounting block pattern and would not require modification to your boat. Check with Rudy at D&R Marine (his contact info is in the links section of this site). I bought a new outboard bracket from him a few years ago that fit my block and didn't require redrilling (I did need to fix my block, but that's a different story). It doesn't say so on the bracket, but Rudy told me that Garelick told him it was rated to handle a four stroke. As far as finding a Nissan 25" model, try Sailnet. They carry the Nissan line. I bought an 8 hp two stroke from them a couple of years ago. Best price I could find, no waiting.
Outboard brackets have two different limits: weight of the engine; and the ability to handle torque. Brackets generally have a weight limitation printed on them. This number is generally related to the horsepower of the engine as a function of weight, but is mostly relevant to the bracket's ability to move up and down with that weight. Practically speaking, if your engine weighs 100 lbs and the bracket is rated at 115 lbs. it means that the bracket manufacturer expects that the horsepower of the engine will generally be less than 15 hp, and that the spring on the bracket is strong enough to help you lift that weight. None of this has anything to do with torque. Four horse power engines generate more torque than comparably-sized (i.e., same horsepower) two stroke engines. They generate correspondingly more stress on the bracket, which is why brackets are specifically rated to handle four strokes. In short, just because your four stroke weighs less than the stated capacity of the bracket does not mean that the bracket should be used. Using a mis-matched bracket and engine could lead to damaging the bracket, or worse. Kevin's project turned out to be a bigger job than he wanted, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Garelick makes an outboard bracket that fits the original Oday mounting block pattern and would not require modification to your boat. Check with Rudy at D&R Marine (his contact info is in the links section of this site). I bought a new outboard bracket from him a few years ago that fit my block and didn't require redrilling (I did need to fix my block, but that's a different story). It doesn't say so on the bracket, but Rudy told me that Garelick told him it was rated to handle a four stroke. As far as finding a Nissan 25" model, try Sailnet. They carry the Nissan line. I bought an 8 hp two stroke from them a couple of years ago. Best price I could find, no waiting.
Motor Bracket
Well I ahve been dealing with the 4 stroke motor mount issue for a few weeks here. I ended up getting the Garelick 71090 because I really needed the lifting power of that bracket. I'm not an amazon woman and plan to sail solo sometimes. That said, I knew the specs for the mount would not match my wedge so I am having some guys at my marina fix it up. They ordered a new wedge to be fabricated and will mount the Garelick 71090 on that. These guys have been in the boat repair business for 30 years and I trust their expertise. I am sure there are other solutions to this problem and I am wondering what Rudy has at DR Marine that fits the 5.5 inch wide wedge. My sense is that it wouldn't give me the lift power I need, but maybe I'm just making excuses for my own solution that is costing me $300.
Well I ahve been dealing with the 4 stroke motor mount issue for a few weeks here. I ended up getting the Garelick 71090 because I really needed the lifting power of that bracket. I'm not an amazon woman and plan to sail solo sometimes. That said, I knew the specs for the mount would not match my wedge so I am having some guys at my marina fix it up. They ordered a new wedge to be fabricated and will mount the Garelick 71090 on that. These guys have been in the boat repair business for 30 years and I trust their expertise. I am sure there are other solutions to this problem and I am wondering what Rudy has at DR Marine that fits the 5.5 inch wide wedge. My sense is that it wouldn't give me the lift power I need, but maybe I'm just making excuses for my own solution that is costing me $300.
S
Steve Braverman
I'm missing something. What's a wedge?
Okay, my boat must be lacking something. the bracket is bolted directly to the transome. No wedge. Can I reinforce the transom with a backing plate? Garelick's four-stroke bracket is $400, twice what the 115lb capacity two-stroke bracket costs. Somehow I doubt it's twice as good.
Okay, my boat must be lacking something. the bracket is bolted directly to the transome. No wedge. Can I reinforce the transom with a backing plate? Garelick's four-stroke bracket is $400, twice what the 115lb capacity two-stroke bracket costs. Somehow I doubt it's twice as good.
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Rich / O272
Mike, I'm curious...
you mentioned that you bought a bracket from Rudy that mounted up to the holes on the factory transom block (aka "wedge"). Is this mount a Garelick product and, if so, is it model # 71057? I looked long and hard at that mount, as it appeared to have the "beans" to facilitate using a four stroke engine, but saw no mention of it being "approved" to do so. And, someone at Garelick told Rudy that the mount you purchased was rated for use with a four stroke? Very interesting, because the Legal Beagles at most manufacturers love to use that "neither expressed nor implied" phraseology in their warranty disclaimer. When you use their product in a manner that's counter to the "approved" use, because someone told you it's okay, and make a warranty claim after the unexpected fiasco, you can almost always count on a scolding for misusing their product. Then the "too bad, so sad" part comes next. But, you have peaked my curiosity!!
you mentioned that you bought a bracket from Rudy that mounted up to the holes on the factory transom block (aka "wedge"). Is this mount a Garelick product and, if so, is it model # 71057? I looked long and hard at that mount, as it appeared to have the "beans" to facilitate using a four stroke engine, but saw no mention of it being "approved" to do so. And, someone at Garelick told Rudy that the mount you purchased was rated for use with a four stroke? Very interesting, because the Legal Beagles at most manufacturers love to use that "neither expressed nor implied" phraseology in their warranty disclaimer. When you use their product in a manner that's counter to the "approved" use, because someone told you it's okay, and make a warranty claim after the unexpected fiasco, you can almost always count on a scolding for misusing their product. Then the "too bad, so sad" part comes next. But, you have peaked my curiosity!!
M
Mike
Rich...
The bracket is a Garelick, but I don't remember the model number. As far as its suitability to handle a four-stroke, I wasn't that concerned as I had a two stroke at the time, and replaced it last year with another two stroke (the Admiral was concerned she wouldn't be able to lift a four stroke). I recall my conversation with Rudy about the topic as an off-hand remark by him; I had asked if it could handle a four stroke, and he appeared to be consulting some paperwork from Garelick when he answered that it could. However, I agree with your assessment of how that might play out in any warranty claim. Steve: You can beef up the transom. You can glue or glass in a large piece of marine plywood as a backing plate, but that won't address the issue of the strength of the bracket itself. While the four stroke bracket may be considerably more expensive, I am not an engineer and I can't really offer an opinion about the suitability of using a two stroke bracket with a four stroke engine. I only know what I offered yesterday. Another option is to buy a new two stroke engine (as I did). Despite what you hear, it is my opinion that except for isolated lakes, they will never be outlawed (I am an environmental lawyer and keep up with these things). EPA will eventually ban the manufacture of new two strokes, but they will not make you get rid of yours. They are cheaper to buy and service than a four stroke, and weigh less. The new units also are significantly quieter, more reliable and pollute less than their predecessors. And since I go through only about 10 gallons of gas a season, I don't find it particularly annoying to mix fuel. Just a thought.
The bracket is a Garelick, but I don't remember the model number. As far as its suitability to handle a four-stroke, I wasn't that concerned as I had a two stroke at the time, and replaced it last year with another two stroke (the Admiral was concerned she wouldn't be able to lift a four stroke). I recall my conversation with Rudy about the topic as an off-hand remark by him; I had asked if it could handle a four stroke, and he appeared to be consulting some paperwork from Garelick when he answered that it could. However, I agree with your assessment of how that might play out in any warranty claim. Steve: You can beef up the transom. You can glue or glass in a large piece of marine plywood as a backing plate, but that won't address the issue of the strength of the bracket itself. While the four stroke bracket may be considerably more expensive, I am not an engineer and I can't really offer an opinion about the suitability of using a two stroke bracket with a four stroke engine. I only know what I offered yesterday. Another option is to buy a new two stroke engine (as I did). Despite what you hear, it is my opinion that except for isolated lakes, they will never be outlawed (I am an environmental lawyer and keep up with these things). EPA will eventually ban the manufacture of new two strokes, but they will not make you get rid of yours. They are cheaper to buy and service than a four stroke, and weigh less. The new units also are significantly quieter, more reliable and pollute less than their predecessors. And since I go through only about 10 gallons of gas a season, I don't find it particularly annoying to mix fuel. Just a thought.
C
Charles Jones
bracket wedge angle
I have separately asked ffor info re the O'Day 25 original wedge angle. Personally, I do not think it is serious to run without a wedge PROVIDING that the transom reverse sheer angle, which I estimate, by a few rough mesurements, to be 7-8 degrees, allows you to get adequate immersion of the cavitation plate without having to mount the bracket low. the small angle in itself will not seriously affect performance since the forward component of the thrust resultant is almost unchanged with that small an angle. The down (vertical) component will cause your boat to squat a bit more but that too should be small. The real problem is that even a small angle of 8 degrees, with the transom plate 16 or more inches from the transom, the angle will raise the motor by inches. Because I am not satisfied that I have enough immersion with the garelick 71091 that I installed directly on my transom. I am making a wedge and have chosen a wedge angle of almost 20 degrees which is close to what I believe the production wedge was. I have separately asked if one of the 25 owners would please confirm the angle or the wedge dimensions to allow me to calculate the angle. Since the bracket I chose (for my 8 Hp 4 str electric start, power tilt O/B has almost twice as much vertiucal travel as the 91090, I could install the bracket fairly high and I prefer not to drill new holes
I have separately asked ffor info re the O'Day 25 original wedge angle. Personally, I do not think it is serious to run without a wedge PROVIDING that the transom reverse sheer angle, which I estimate, by a few rough mesurements, to be 7-8 degrees, allows you to get adequate immersion of the cavitation plate without having to mount the bracket low. the small angle in itself will not seriously affect performance since the forward component of the thrust resultant is almost unchanged with that small an angle. The down (vertical) component will cause your boat to squat a bit more but that too should be small. The real problem is that even a small angle of 8 degrees, with the transom plate 16 or more inches from the transom, the angle will raise the motor by inches. Because I am not satisfied that I have enough immersion with the garelick 71091 that I installed directly on my transom. I am making a wedge and have chosen a wedge angle of almost 20 degrees which is close to what I believe the production wedge was. I have separately asked if one of the 25 owners would please confirm the angle or the wedge dimensions to allow me to calculate the angle. Since the bracket I chose (for my 8 Hp 4 str electric start, power tilt O/B has almost twice as much vertiucal travel as the 91090, I could install the bracket fairly high and I prefer not to drill new holes
E
Ed
Wedge Angle and Motor Controls
The problem with no wedge is not neccesarily getting the prop in the water; you can always remount the bracket lower. The problem I had without a wedge is the outboard throttle control was too close to the transom. I couldn't lower it all the way, it would hit the rubrail. The wedge adds several inches of distance between the motor and transom.
The problem with no wedge is not neccesarily getting the prop in the water; you can always remount the bracket lower. The problem I had without a wedge is the outboard throttle control was too close to the transom. I couldn't lower it all the way, it would hit the rubrail. The wedge adds several inches of distance between the motor and transom.
S
Steve Braverman
No wedge for me.
I bought the Garelick 71090 from West. Turns out they will match any price online! I mounted it without a wedge, but I have a thick piece of plywood under it, approx 1 inch thick. The handle for the bracket is close to the transom, but I think it will be okay. The transom on the 25 is very sturdy. There is thick plywood glassed into the entire transom, I think it should be ok. The transom angle on the 25 is very slight. I have not mounted the engine yet, I'll let you know how it works out. I couldn't get enough prop in the water with my old long-shaft, that is why I went with the extra-long shaft (25"). Hopefully this will be better. If not, I'll have to make a wedge. As for two-strokes, I'm not afraid of them being made illegal where I live. I only sail in salt water anyway. I just hate two-strokes. I hate the way they smell, the way they shake, and the way they sound.
I bought the Garelick 71090 from West. Turns out they will match any price online! I mounted it without a wedge, but I have a thick piece of plywood under it, approx 1 inch thick. The handle for the bracket is close to the transom, but I think it will be okay. The transom on the 25 is very sturdy. There is thick plywood glassed into the entire transom, I think it should be ok. The transom angle on the 25 is very slight. I have not mounted the engine yet, I'll let you know how it works out. I couldn't get enough prop in the water with my old long-shaft, that is why I went with the extra-long shaft (25"). Hopefully this will be better. If not, I'll have to make a wedge. As for two-strokes, I'm not afraid of them being made illegal where I live. I only sail in salt water anyway. I just hate two-strokes. I hate the way they smell, the way they shake, and the way they sound.
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