Other fresh water pressure issues

[MattObjects]

I know FriscoRon has a recent post about fresh water pressure issues but my problem is a bit different and I don't want to hijack his thread.

When I bought our '79 Rafiki 35 last year, it had an ancient belt driven fresh water pressure pump that would cycle on frequently if it had power. When it finally overheated and melted its soldered electrical connections, I bought a Whale automatic fresh water pressure pump to replace it. When I first installed the new pump, water would squirt out of the pump housing. I sent it back to Whale/Attwood for warranty repairs (I installed it 35 days after buying it, which was 5 days too late to get a refund or exchange). I was told the leak had been from a missing internal washer and that the pump was repaired and fully tested before being returned to me.

When I reinstalled it, the pump itself didn't leak but the water pressure it generated caused leaks throughout my boat. It seemed as if the weakest connection would fail, releasing the pressure, then after I had fixed that, the next weakest connection would fail, etc. I figured these connections may have been due for replacement and maybe just lasted longer than they should have because of the lower pressure from the old pump.

So I re-did the water lines from the pump to the outlets throughout the boat.

Now there are no leaks in the lines but when power is supplied to the pump, the pump does not ever stop running. If the faucets are closed, the pump pressurizes the water lines to the point that the lines visibly bulge where they meet hose clamps. The bulges go away when the faucet is opened. When a faucet is opened, I can see the pump drawing up water through the clear strainer basket. When the faucets are closed, no water moves through the pump (which makes sense because the lines are full) but the pump motor keeps running (and will keep running until I cut power to it).

Any idea what would cause this? I am thinking a bad pressure sensor in the pump but do not know how to test that theory. I have already paid to ship the pump back to the manufacturer once because it was missing a part when sold to me and I didn't have a great experience with customer service then so if the problem is the pump itself, I would rather put money toward a different pump than toward shipping this one back a second time. On the other hand, I don't want to buy another pump if the problem is elsewhere in the boat.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Calif. Ted]

Yeah, I think the pressure sensor has already failed it's basic operational test, it's not working.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

I have already paid to ship the pump back to the manufacturer once because it was missing a part when sold to me and I didn't have a great experience with customer service then so if the problem is the pump itself, I would rather put money toward a different pump than toward shipping this one back a second time.

I know what you mean about the shipping costs soon adding up to the cost of a new and different (better) pump. I agree with Cal. Ted that the pressure sensor is dead and definitely "not your fault".

Any thoughts about going to the retailer (where you purchased the pump) and hammering them "face to face". Inform them that they're making a profit at your expense for this Monday morning abortion and you're not impressed. If it were me, I'd want someone standing in front of me that I can dump on.

 

[MattObjects]

Any thoughts about going to the retailer (where you purchased the pump) and hammering them "face to face".

I bought the pump from Defender while at their annual warehouse sale, which was 3 hours from where I live. When I called Defender customer service after the first time I installed the pump, they gave me the number to call Whale/Attwood but refused to accept the pump as a return because I was a few days past their 30-day return period. I have spent thousands on gear from Defender over the years so that was pretty disappointing. Now that my boat is in the water, I'm not willing to give up a Saturday of sailing to drive 6 hours round trip to give them a piece of my mind, though it is tempting.

Thanks for confirming that the issue is with the pump. I've already spent more than the pump cost to replace the lines and connectors the pump blew out, so I think it is time to cut my losses and just shell out for a better pump from a different company.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

When I called Defender customer service after the first time I installed the pump, they gave me the number to call Whale/Attwood but refused to accept the pump as a return because I was a few days past their 30-day return period. I have spent thousands on gear from Defender over the years so that was pretty disappointing.

Call me vindicative but I'd be informing Defender and Whale of this web site posting. Whale is 100% at fault here (admitted a missing internal washer the first time) and Defender is not too far behind in poor customer support. This problem is an assembly line screw up. When you look at it, what cheap SOB falls back on a 30 days warranty because he has a quality control problem on the assembly line. For that matter, a 30 day warranty is NO WARRANTY. Please pursue these two useless SOB's as it may prevent future problems with my next Defender purchase. I have always found Defender to be great for information and sourcing products but I hadn't realized they are not willing to go to bat for their customers.

I do have one Whale hand pump from 10 years ago but looks like the company is now down the tube. Whale products are now off my diet.

 

[centerline]

it sounds as if the pressure is too high, and there is usually an adjustment to set the pressure where its wanted... if its it set to high, the pump can never achieve the pressure required to shut it off, so it runs on.... and that would have been my first thought when the lines started leaking after installing it.... the adjuster screw could actually have gotten fouled for some reason during their attempt at repairing it, or it could just be out of adjustment after they installed the missing parts....

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Can you supply the make and model number of the pump ? ? ? ? A check of the installation manual on line may shed more light.

As Centerline mentions, the pressure setting may be too high but I can't see an allowable setting being high enough to blow out tubing. Sounds like the pressure switch has failed closed and will run indefinitely.

 

[MattObjects]

it sounds as if the pressure is too high, and there is usually an adjustment to set the pressure where its wanted...

If there is an adjustment mechanism, it is internal to the pump. There is nothing whatsoever to adjust anything on the outside of the pump. The instructions provided with the pump do not indicate any way to adjust the pressure and I have not been able to find anything like that when looking at schematics for the pump online. Do you have advice on where the adjustment mechanism would be?

 

[MattObjects]

Can you supply the make and model number of the pump ? ? ? ?

It is a Whale Universal Fresh Water Pressure Pump Model No. UF1215. The pump housing says the pressure setting is 45psi. Nothing in the manual or what I've been able to find online suggests this is adjustable.

 

[centerline]

If there is an adjustment mechanism, it is internal to the pump. There is nothing whatsoever to adjust anything on the outside of the pump. The instructions provided with the pump do not indicate any way to adjust the pressure and I have not been able to find anything like that when looking at schematics for the pump online. Do you have advice on where the adjustment mechanism would be?

my apologies.... I looked up the pump and see that its one of those kinds of pumps that are designed to be "fully" automatic (as you said), and so is manufactured without the usual adjusting screw.... new technology isnt always "new" or better, but it seems to always be more expensive.
in this case they have sold you a new technology pump, where the only self-help option has been designed out of it....
also, the shurflow variable flow pumps are NOT better than the old standard models...

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Nothing in the manual or what I've been able to find online suggests this is adjustable.

Exactly as you say. I also highly doubt you used pipe dope on any screwed fittings and fouled the sensor ?

How did they manage to avoid the two year warranty with their statement of limited warranty ?

 

[MattObjects]

Please pursue these two useless SOB's

I am far from happy with how these companies have handled this but did not intend this thread to be about slamming them. I chose the Whale pump because I had Whale pumps on a prior boat that worked fine. I have had other very positive experiences with Defender customer service.

And the truth is, there is not a whole lot I can do to "pursue" Whale/Attwood. If a company insists on enforcing a rotten warranty policy that penalizes you for unwittingly buying their defective product, even after you've spoken with customer service reps and their managers, what other options do you have? File a lawsuit over a $125 pump? I can't justify that.

 

[MattObjects]

Exactly as you say. I also highly doubt you used pipe dope on any screwed fittings and fouled the sensor ?

View attachment 124846

How did they manage to avoid the two year warranty with their statement of limited warranty ?

The pump has quick-connect fittings for inlet and outlet hoses. No pipe dope or Teflon tape was used.

Attwood says they will honor the warranty by repairing the pump, I just have to pay to ship the pump back to them (for a second time, as I already paid to send it to them once before) and then wait however long it takes for them to get it back to me. I was irritated about them requiring me to pay to send them back their defective pump the first time. I can't justify doing it again given the cost of a comparable pump from another company (around $100), the annoyance of being without water aboard while I wait on them to send the pump back, and the lack of any assurance the pump will actually be fixed if I send it back (since they've already had 2 chances to deliver a pump that worked properly).

Given the consensus that the problem is with the pump, I will buy one from another company. Then I can decide whether it is worth paying to ship the defective pump back to be repaired and possibly kept as a spare.

If anyone has a water pressure pump they love and would recommend, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

did not intend this thread to be about slamming them

Other than my salty adjectives, looks as if there are only technical facts to this point.

I notice in all of their warranties they will not cover shipping. Still curious as to what was in their limited warranty said to get them out of this.

I still say Whale pumps are off my diet when you get into problems that point to incompetence such as this on the assembly line.

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Attwood says they will honor the warranty by repairing the pump, I just have to pay to ship the pump back to them (for a second time, as I already paid to send it to them once before) and then wait however long it takes for them to get it back to me. I was irritated about them requiring me to pay to send them back their defective pump the first time.

I see they are willing to fix their next mistake (under warranty) but you pay the shipping. Really terrible PR for such a series of dumb mistakes.

I hope you let them know that you're spreading their lousy reputation.

 

[Benny17441]

Call the manufacturer back and explain that you have already shipped the pump once at your expense and you expect a reputable company like themselves to cover shipping chargers for the second time.

 

[MattObjects]

Call the manufacturer back and explain that you have already shipped the pump once at your expense and you expect a reputable company like themselves to cover shipping chargers for the second time.

I have reached out to them and am waiting on a reply. I'll provide an update when I hear from them.

In the interim, can anyone recommend a reliable automatic fresh water pressure pump for a 35 ft boat with 3 outlets but rarely more than 1 and never more than 2 in use at the same time?

 

[SFS]

If you don't get any help from the manufacturer on the shipping, I would pose that exact question to them, and I would do so rather pointedly.

 

[MattObjects]

A representative from Attwood emailed me, not to offer to make this right, but to ask how many showers and sinks I am supplying with this pump. I am not sure how that would be relevant to this particular malfunction.

We have one shower and two sinks. This is exactly what I told an Attwood vendor at the Defender annual sale who then recommended this specific pump to us as perfect for our needs, so I am going to be pretty irritated if Attwood now tries to say the pump does not work because it is not the right size for my boat.

 

[MattObjects]

Okay. So Attwood responded to me.

I have already paid to return the defective-as-sold pump to them once. Now that it still doesn't work, THEY ARE NOT EVEN OFFERING TO HONOR THEIR WARRANTY IF I PAY TO RETURN IT TO THEM.

Instead, this is what the Attwood representative had to say in an email to me:

"It sounds like your system is not set up for 45 PSI and the pump you should have gotten was the UF 1214 which is for 3-4 outlets at 30 PSI. I do not believe the micro-switch is bad because the pump kicks off for you."

Never mind that the pump motor never kicks off, they have decided the switch is fine because water stops moving through the pump (as of course it must when the lines are full). And never mind that I bought the UF 1215 based on the advice of their own representative. And never mind that the specs and packaging for the UF 1215 say it is for boats with 3-4 outlets or that my prior pump operated at 45 PSI which caused no leaks in my system or that I have since replaced all of the lines with ones rated for up to 80 PSI.

I have never been this disgusted with a company's failure to stand by their products before.