I am new to sailing and have recently made an offer on a 1985 Catalina 36. The marine survey notes 400-500 Osmotic Blisters and 10-12 2-inch blisters. I have been advised that I only need to repair the 2-inch blisters. However I am concerned with that advice... should I be concerned with the 400-500 Osmotic Blisters? If so what are my options?
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Blisters
The whole bottom probably should be peeled, dried, blisters repaired and minimum of three barrier coats of epoxy. Price the job, factor it into the selling price and walk if you are not satisfied.
The whole bottom probably should be peeled, dried, blisters repaired and minimum of three barrier coats of epoxy. Price the job, factor it into the selling price and walk if you are not satisfied.
That going to cost
more than the boat is worth! Get the boat real cheap. Have the bottom sand blasted. That will open up the blisters. Let it dry out for months. Full the big blister in and exopy the bottom with at least 5 coat. It is very inportant to follow the directions. Then a coat of black abladive bottom paint and then a coat of blue. Get a price on the sand blasting. I thing the whole job is about $100 or more a foot!
more than the boat is worth! Get the boat real cheap. Have the bottom sand blasted. That will open up the blisters. Let it dry out for months. Full the big blister in and exopy the bottom with at least 5 coat. It is very inportant to follow the directions. Then a coat of black abladive bottom paint and then a coat of blue. Get a price on the sand blasting. I thing the whole job is about $100 or more a foot!
Take $10K off
Hi Dave, Here's a court case involving blisters on a 1992 42' Catalina (Pierce v. Catalina). Their estimate to return the hull to like-new condition was over $10,000. http://touchngo.com/sp/html/sp-5277.htm Of course you won't be that demanding on this older boat. Here's recommendations of Don Casey (a real expert) referring to a Catalina 25. (related link) Blisters are especially bad here in the south. My O'Day 20 sat in the water on the North Shore for 3 years (before I bought it) without an epoxy barrier coat and it has quite a few blisters. My boat isn't worth investing that much money for major repairs. Maybe I'll just rename it "Lumpy". Is the boat you're looking at slipped at Municipal? Happy sails, MArk
Hi Dave, Here's a court case involving blisters on a 1992 42' Catalina (Pierce v. Catalina). Their estimate to return the hull to like-new condition was over $10,000. http://touchngo.com/sp/html/sp-5277.htm Of course you won't be that demanding on this older boat. Here's recommendations of Don Casey (a real expert) referring to a Catalina 25. (related link) Blisters are especially bad here in the south. My O'Day 20 sat in the water on the North Shore for 3 years (before I bought it) without an epoxy barrier coat and it has quite a few blisters. My boat isn't worth investing that much money for major repairs. Maybe I'll just rename it "Lumpy". Is the boat you're looking at slipped at Municipal? Happy sails, MArk
Your Surveyor or Dealer Surveyor
Just curious. After reading your post it sounds like the survey was either done before the offer was made or after the offer was made but with the surveyor hired by the broker. The surveyor should be someone that is selected by you, hired by you, and works for you on your behalf. There should be an understanding what the surveyor is going to provide because not all two surveys are equal in the extent or degree of effort made. No Anderson-Enron conflict of interest type situation between the surveyor and the broker. Your surveyor should be able to answer your question but my feeling is, based on the numbers and sizes you're talking about, that there is a systemic problem with moisture in the hull and it's going to have to be totally dried out and repaired. This is a time consuming and expensive project. I'd second "walking away". Actually, make that "runing away"!
Just curious. After reading your post it sounds like the survey was either done before the offer was made or after the offer was made but with the surveyor hired by the broker. The surveyor should be someone that is selected by you, hired by you, and works for you on your behalf. There should be an understanding what the surveyor is going to provide because not all two surveys are equal in the extent or degree of effort made. No Anderson-Enron conflict of interest type situation between the surveyor and the broker. Your surveyor should be able to answer your question but my feeling is, based on the numbers and sizes you're talking about, that there is a systemic problem with moisture in the hull and it's going to have to be totally dried out and repaired. This is a time consuming and expensive project. I'd second "walking away". Actually, make that "runing away"!
Overreaction?
Maybe I don't know what an "osmotic" blister is. But it sounds like you only have a dozen "real" blisters which is really not bad for a 17-year old boat. Guess you'd want to know how long it has been in the water. Even if only half of it's life that is still not bad. If osmotic blisters are those pencil eraser size things that do not contain any moisture then forget those. Take all the paint off down to bare gelcoat. Sand the gelcoat smooth. Fix the 2-inchers. Use at least five coats of epoxy barrier coat like Interlux 2000E and you are ready for anti-fouling. But as pointed out, factor this into the purchase price.
Maybe I don't know what an "osmotic" blister is. But it sounds like you only have a dozen "real" blisters which is really not bad for a 17-year old boat. Guess you'd want to know how long it has been in the water. Even if only half of it's life that is still not bad. If osmotic blisters are those pencil eraser size things that do not contain any moisture then forget those. Take all the paint off down to bare gelcoat. Sand the gelcoat smooth. Fix the 2-inchers. Use at least five coats of epoxy barrier coat like Interlux 2000E and you are ready for anti-fouling. But as pointed out, factor this into the purchase price.
Boat Pox
All blisters are "osmotic" unless they started with surface damage. Without being too precise about it, osmotic just means "water soaked in." 1985 is right in the middle of the "blister era" of fiberglass boatbuilding, when builders started using cheaper resins without realizing that they would cause blistering down the road. That boat's going to have to be peeled, dried and have a new barrier coat and gelcoat applied. It's not as bad as it sounds, but wouldn't it be better to find a boat that didn't need it? Good Luck Paul sv Escape Artist h336
All blisters are "osmotic" unless they started with surface damage. Without being too precise about it, osmotic just means "water soaked in." 1985 is right in the middle of the "blister era" of fiberglass boatbuilding, when builders started using cheaper resins without realizing that they would cause blistering down the road. That boat's going to have to be peeled, dried and have a new barrier coat and gelcoat applied. It's not as bad as it sounds, but wouldn't it be better to find a boat that didn't need it? Good Luck Paul sv Escape Artist h336
If you want to sail in the next year, move on
Not that I have any direct experience, but there's a nice Catalina 30 at my marina that had the bottom peeled off almost a year ago. Waiting for the bottom to dry out before re-applying epoxy is a major deal. Perhaps it shouldn't take what this one is, but nevertheless, you won't be sailing for quite awhile. Oh, and $10K doesn't sound too off base for the job.
Not that I have any direct experience, but there's a nice Catalina 30 at my marina that had the bottom peeled off almost a year ago. Waiting for the bottom to dry out before re-applying epoxy is a major deal. Perhaps it shouldn't take what this one is, but nevertheless, you won't be sailing for quite awhile. Oh, and $10K doesn't sound too off base for the job.
quesion for Paul of Clinton, CT
You said "1985 is right in the middle of the "blister era" of fiberglass boatbuilding." I'm moving up if/when I find something that catches my heart just right. Is there an end point to the "blister era?" Late '80's boats are about in my price point, wing keels for shoal draft are more prolific, and the hull SHOULD have enough life left in it to give me years of sailing. But, I'd never heard of a blister era. Elaboration please? Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
You said "1985 is right in the middle of the "blister era" of fiberglass boatbuilding." I'm moving up if/when I find something that catches my heart just right. Is there an end point to the "blister era?" Late '80's boats are about in my price point, wing keels for shoal draft are more prolific, and the hull SHOULD have enough life left in it to give me years of sailing. But, I'd never heard of a blister era. Elaboration please? Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
I would not worry about the year.
Tom: I would not worry about the year of the boat. The older a boat gets without having blisters the less likely it is that it will ever have a bad case. Out boat is a 1985 and has only had a couple over the years (never fixed). Boats that are in cold salt water are the least likely to get them, boats in warm fresh water are the most likely to get them. We have friends that got a late 70's Ericson that got them and have known others with late 90's models that got them. There are so many theories to this problem that you cannot figure out which ones are fact or ficton. The newer materials are more resistant to the problem but are not immune either. Find a boat that you like and have it checked out. The fix runs from $100-300/ft for the fix. If you like the boat the seller can have it fixed for you or deduct the fix from the price.
Tom: I would not worry about the year of the boat. The older a boat gets without having blisters the less likely it is that it will ever have a bad case. Out boat is a 1985 and has only had a couple over the years (never fixed). Boats that are in cold salt water are the least likely to get them, boats in warm fresh water are the most likely to get them. We have friends that got a late 70's Ericson that got them and have known others with late 90's models that got them. There are so many theories to this problem that you cannot figure out which ones are fact or ficton. The newer materials are more resistant to the problem but are not immune either. Find a boat that you like and have it checked out. The fix runs from $100-300/ft for the fix. If you like the boat the seller can have it fixed for you or deduct the fix from the price.
The Blister Era
I've seen articles mention the 80's as the decade of the blister boats. This may be because there was a surge of boat building at that time and in a rush to push boats out the door, factories weren't allowing enough time for the resin to cure properly. While uncured resin and solvents left between gelcoat and fiberglass don't cause blisters, the temendous hydoscopic attraction forces they create make blisters much more likely and severe. Some poorly laid boats will blister in as little as 1 year in the water. 20 mils of epoxy barrier is even more important on these boats. See related link.
I've seen articles mention the 80's as the decade of the blister boats. This may be because there was a surge of boat building at that time and in a rush to push boats out the door, factories weren't allowing enough time for the resin to cure properly. While uncured resin and solvents left between gelcoat and fiberglass don't cause blisters, the temendous hydoscopic attraction forces they create make blisters much more likely and severe. Some poorly laid boats will blister in as little as 1 year in the water. 20 mils of epoxy barrier is even more important on these boats. See related link.
Many Used Barrier Coats
By the late '80s due to the scare about blisters many dealers and new boat buyers opted to add barrier coats to counter the potential blister problem. My dealer paid for three coats and I added a couple additional coats on our '88 boat. To this day there has never been a blister of any size. Since I haul and sand the bottom every year and there is essentially no bottom paint build-up (I alternated between red and blue for a few years to tell when I was getting close) it would be really obvious if there was a blister or not. To my knowledge every boat the dealer sold during this time period had a barrier coat system added and standardly this was three coats. To learn more about blisters I'd recommend walking around a boat yard where people are doing bottom paint and look at the boat bottoms. In addition to possibly seeing some blisters you'll see many other *interesting* things such as the keel smile (crack between the keel and hull joint, patched keels and rudders, through hulls from the bottom side, speed transducers, etc. The owners will usually be glad to talk to you although they probably keep on working while doing so. The standard fix here for the pox is to put the boat inside a shed (some tent off and use salamander heaters)and keep it warm while testing for moisture content. When it's dried out then the new skin is applied. See the link below for a good description: http://www.capsante.com/osmotic.htm (Cap Sante is in Port Townsend WA) Do-it-yourself testing: http://www.diy-boat.com/Pages/Archives/links/blisters.html Osmotic Blistering - The Dreaded Boat Pox: http://www.oceanmarineservices.com/osmotic_blistering.htm (check link to book sumary at bottom of article)
By the late '80s due to the scare about blisters many dealers and new boat buyers opted to add barrier coats to counter the potential blister problem. My dealer paid for three coats and I added a couple additional coats on our '88 boat. To this day there has never been a blister of any size. Since I haul and sand the bottom every year and there is essentially no bottom paint build-up (I alternated between red and blue for a few years to tell when I was getting close) it would be really obvious if there was a blister or not. To my knowledge every boat the dealer sold during this time period had a barrier coat system added and standardly this was three coats. To learn more about blisters I'd recommend walking around a boat yard where people are doing bottom paint and look at the boat bottoms. In addition to possibly seeing some blisters you'll see many other *interesting* things such as the keel smile (crack between the keel and hull joint, patched keels and rudders, through hulls from the bottom side, speed transducers, etc. The owners will usually be glad to talk to you although they probably keep on working while doing so. The standard fix here for the pox is to put the boat inside a shed (some tent off and use salamander heaters)and keep it warm while testing for moisture content. When it's dried out then the new skin is applied. See the link below for a good description: http://www.capsante.com/osmotic.htm (Cap Sante is in Port Townsend WA) Do-it-yourself testing: http://www.diy-boat.com/Pages/Archives/links/blisters.html Osmotic Blistering - The Dreaded Boat Pox: http://www.oceanmarineservices.com/osmotic_blistering.htm (check link to book sumary at bottom of article)
Valiants were the first
For some reason, boat manufacturers started using cheaper, poorly formulated resins in the 80s. Some people say it was due to the higher price of petrochemicals, but other experts disagree. The early 1980s Valiants are famous for their blistering hulls. They were the first manufacturer to get the bad news when they traced the problem to their resin formulation. They solved it eventually with better resins and barrier coating, but lots of Valiant owners had to peel their hulls. Anyway, if you are looking at 1980s boats, if they are going to blister badly they would be doing it already. This didn't happen to every model made during that period. That's why you get a survey. The original poster in this thread is considering buying a boat that he's paid someone to survey, who has learned from the survey that the boat does not have just a blister or two, but blister pox. My point is he should walk away and find a boat that doesn't have this problem. Paul
For some reason, boat manufacturers started using cheaper, poorly formulated resins in the 80s. Some people say it was due to the higher price of petrochemicals, but other experts disagree. The early 1980s Valiants are famous for their blistering hulls. They were the first manufacturer to get the bad news when they traced the problem to their resin formulation. They solved it eventually with better resins and barrier coating, but lots of Valiant owners had to peel their hulls. Anyway, if you are looking at 1980s boats, if they are going to blister badly they would be doing it already. This didn't happen to every model made during that period. That's why you get a survey. The original poster in this thread is considering buying a boat that he's paid someone to survey, who has learned from the survey that the boat does not have just a blister or two, but blister pox. My point is he should walk away and find a boat that doesn't have this problem. Paul
Ed Schenck is right
The small blisters will disapper after the boat drys out. Still needs the 12 big blisters fixed and exopy barrier coat!
The small blisters will disapper after the boat drys out. Still needs the 12 big blisters fixed and exopy barrier coat!
I would get them ALL fixed.
If you are going to buy a boat with the POX, you need to be sure that they are ALL fixed and fixed correctly. If you don't and you try to sell the boat, the next buyer is going to be in YOUR pocket for the fix. They may or may not go away, but you want to be sure that the condition is cleared up and you don't want to be dealing with this in 1, 2 or 5 years from now when you TRY to sell her.
If you are going to buy a boat with the POX, you need to be sure that they are ALL fixed and fixed correctly. If you don't and you try to sell the boat, the next buyer is going to be in YOUR pocket for the fix. They may or may not go away, but you want to be sure that the condition is cleared up and you don't want to be dealing with this in 1, 2 or 5 years from now when you TRY to sell her.
Disappear?
Blisters don't go away by themselves and once they start they will eventually increase in size and number. It must be completely repaired or walk away. Just try and sell a boat with blisters. There is no such thing as a "blister era". All glass boats are subject to blisters depending on a number of factors. With new resin formulations the appearance of blisters can be delayed. Valiants got blisters in the 1970's because the company had switched to a fire retardent resin that promoted blister appearance.
Blisters don't go away by themselves and once they start they will eventually increase in size and number. It must be completely repaired or walk away. Just try and sell a boat with blisters. There is no such thing as a "blister era". All glass boats are subject to blisters depending on a number of factors. With new resin formulations the appearance of blisters can be delayed. Valiants got blisters in the 1970's because the company had switched to a fire retardent resin that promoted blister appearance.
Be careful!
I had and Oday 272 with many osmotic blisters, but no deep ones. If you are going to fix the big ones, then the boat will still have to be out of the water for a long time to dry. I would probably try to fix them all (or have them fixed). Unless you know you will have this boat for a long time (more than 5 years), you may want to rethink this particular one. You will not get that money back for repairs unless you have her for a long time. And if you do try to sell her sooner, the next buyer will probably be very hesitant to give you what you're asking for her. Just as you should ensure that you are not going to pay the current owner full value for a boat that could very well need $10,000 worth of bottom work. Good luck,
I had and Oday 272 with many osmotic blisters, but no deep ones. If you are going to fix the big ones, then the boat will still have to be out of the water for a long time to dry. I would probably try to fix them all (or have them fixed). Unless you know you will have this boat for a long time (more than 5 years), you may want to rethink this particular one. You will not get that money back for repairs unless you have her for a long time. And if you do try to sell her sooner, the next buyer will probably be very hesitant to give you what you're asking for her. Just as you should ensure that you are not going to pay the current owner full value for a boat that could very well need $10,000 worth of bottom work. Good luck,
Read an expert's opinion...
Use the Related Link to get to www.yachtsurvey.com and see what an expert surveyor says about blisters. Good luck!
Use the Related Link to get to www.yachtsurvey.com and see what an expert surveyor says about blisters. Good luck!
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