ORR ez or ORR sleazy???

BH1

.
Jul 4, 2017
10
Beneteau 461 Sarnia
Folks, I have the pleasure of being a two boat owner, one to race and one to cottage. Recently the race I participate in changed to ORR for ratings. My cruising class uses the ORR ez . So now boats that would normally give me time on now I have to give time to.

Example, two of the boats in my fleet have waterline lengths (39ft plus) greater than the overall length of my total boat 36ft.

I have a CS 36 and the other boats are Jeaneau Sun Odyssey 45s

Its a good thing I only race for the party at the end.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Interesting. In general ORR will do a better job of rating boats by giving realistic credits for boat configurations. For instance, many PHRF boards do not give credit for headsails less than 150%. ORR does. Maybe some of that is going on.

For sure, powered up and on a reach, the Jenneaus will walk all over you because of waterline. But I've raced against in them in a 35 footer and we torch them in real time and correct by miles. They are pigs than can't go to windward or get out of their own way.

But still. Maybe more details?
 
  • Like
Likes: jon hansen
Jan 13, 2009
394
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
I'd be more worried about the Beneteau 42 TM SD and the NA 40 in your class. Proven race boats in the cruising class. The Jeaneau 45's have very wide aft sections are virtually stuck to the water in anything less than 12 knots of wind. If the race is a power reach in wind then you will have it tough. Fortunately a power reach for a large part of this race never happens. Additionally, the Jeaneau weighs 10,000lb more than your boat with a lower SA/D ration of 16.4. Think wide, some what heavy boat with a wide rear end. Ugh!
BTW, the parties were better when they were at Mission Point.
 
Last edited:

BH1

.
Jul 4, 2017
10
Beneteau 461 Sarnia
When I reached out to the ORR committee for the rating they indicated that because the manufacturer of my boat is no longer in business and they could not get hull information they erred on the side of caution giving rating preference to those that they could get information on. It would cost me $1000 to get an accurate measurement since we do not have an ORR measurer in our club.

My PHRF rating was 141, at that I was able to win a few races.

As I said, I'm more interested in the Rum at the end of the race. ;*)

However this will be the last race for me in this particular regatta unless they go back to PHRF.
 
Jan 13, 2009
394
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
Yep, it looks like they screwed this one up a bit. A comparable boat in your class is the C&C 35-III. You are almost rated even in ORR. PHRF about 117 for the deep draft model. 35-3 deep draft, better SA/D. I'd contact the committee again and ask them to compare the boats again with the 35-3
 

BH1

.
Jul 4, 2017
10
Beneteau 461 Sarnia
I did question that rating. Their response was for the additional charge for the measurement.

I'm not about to pay this for a race where I'm already invested a couple of thousand for entry fee, crew lodging, food etc.

My crew will need to drink a lot of free booze to make up for that :*)

You'll notice a drop in the number of boats since they initiated this change and probably see more next year since a lot of racers had made commitments to the race before the change in the rating rule.
 

JRacer

.
Aug 9, 2011
1,393
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Doesn't seem very participant friendly. Guess they must have too many participants so they will just run some off. I for sure would have balked at the fee to get a number. Let's see "pay us we'll get you a good number, don't pay us and we'll use the Ouija Board".
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Yea, the big difference between full-on ORR and ORR ez is that ez can use sistership hull measurement data, provided either from the manufacture or from a measured sistership.

If the builder is kaput and cannot provide, then someone has to pay-to-play first.

This is a very strange approach to take for casual racing on the Canadian Great Lakes, with literally thousands of C&C and CS boats racing and no place to get hull data.
 
  • Like
Likes: jon hansen

BH1

.
Jul 4, 2017
10
Beneteau 461 Sarnia
I'm going to sell the CS Merlin this year after 25k in upgrades. Probably for a loss. So I'll crew next year and let someone else pay for the racing toys.

Wife will not let me race the Bene (yet!).:poke:
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
When I reached out to the ORR committee for the rating they indicated that because the manufacturer of my boat is no longer in business and they could not get hull information they erred on the side of caution giving rating preference to those that they could get information on. It would cost me $1000 to get an accurate measurement since we do not have an ORR measurer in our club.
Doing this, giving close to worse-case (fast) numbers for unknown design factors is actually common best-practice for rating boards. The idea is that a rating that ends up being a 'gift' rating hurts all other boats, while one that might be punitive hurts only the one with the unknown factor.
 
  • Like
Likes: jon hansen

BH1

.
Jul 4, 2017
10
Beneteau 461 Sarnia
I agree, but the numbers are completely out of whack. The Jeaneau 45 had a PHRF of 93 in previous races and should have been on the Cove Island course. The owner changed to a fixed prop (or so they say) to alter their rating to stay on the shore course.

How would this translate to a PHRF of higher than 141?

We'll just see how it shakes out during the race.
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,238
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
If you do mind a response from a ways 'out of left field'... but we have had difficulties with some boats in our area having "gift" phrf ratings since the 70's. (!)
I used to race a lot in our prior two boats and always raced in a One Design or Level fleet. A local club encouraged this, and when there were not enough boats entering that were close to my speed potential, I built up my own fleet. Before the internet was commonly available it took a number of phone calls (remember those?) but I was able to always get the required minimum # of five boats on a starting line.

We raced and were scored 'level', i.e. like one-designs. It was WYSIWYG racing and loads of fun. I had a Niagara 26 and recall some of the best nights going at it 'hammer and tongs' against a well-prepared Newport 28-2 and a Santana 27 with faired fins..... finished a twice-around course in a fresh breeze and won by a length. :)
Lordy, that was fun!!

As you might guess, once we had established a "fleet", the RC would ask/get permission to add other near-rated boats to it. It was essentially one design scoring, for boats that did not otherwise have enough sister ships to race against.
Nothing will ever really be better than OD racing, but this was and is the next best thing.

I imagine that anyone can do this anywhere. With web sites and email, the organization would be easier nowadays. Basics never really change.... ya just need a way to (fairly) compete and go out and really tweak your boat and have a lot of fun. Sometimes, when you make the fewest mistakes... you win a $10. trophy to gather dust on your book case.
:)
Regards,
Loren