Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama crossi

[Jackdaw]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Stu,

Like you as a former C22 owner I'm confused by this seeming obsession to take the old girl to sea. I can't understand it; the boat is not designed to do this at a very fundamental level. The upgrades if attempted would be very costly, and now you have a overbuilt C22, worth nowhere near what you have in to it.

Lets say you give it a go; 2 years of work and $13K all in.

Why not just buy this tomorrow??

http://sailingtexas.com/201101/sbayfield25106.html

 

[philwsailz]

As an early/young sailor I moved from a Venture 222 to a 77 Catalina as my next boat. I TOTALLY get the perception that the Catalina is a much more substantial boat. The perception is relative though.... I am trying to say this as gracefully as I can out of respect to those Venture sailors out there; lots of them and they love their boats, rightfully so.

It is not the size so much as the build. As others have mentioned there are blue-water-worthy boats out there in the 20-foot range built to take it. I would hate to share a 20-footer with two other people for that distance though... Just like fish, after three days, company stinks. That being said, I am unsure a C22 can be made to be a bluewater boat ever. Ever see one with an oil-canned hull from simply sitting on the trailer too long? It still is just too lightly built....

I

 

[inarathree]

Of course there are many people who have sailed across in small boats, and in times before gps. Careful planning, and picking the right window and you shouldnt have too many problems. I have a Hunter 22 swing keel, and feel confident enough in my boat and my ability that under the right conditions I would have no problem sailing from Tampa (home) to Cancun. Many of the local sailors sail up to Cedar Key from here, thats 90 miles and at times 60 miles off shore. I know thats not the same as across the gulf stream.

Things that I would do to my boat. Change out the standing rigging. Just so I know that its new and should have the least problems. Its been mentioned to not increase the size, due to weight. I agree. There just isnt enough weight in a small boat to offset the additional weight up top.

Add an auto tiller. ST1000 (?), absolute must. its one thing to sail for 3 or 4 hours holding a tiller, holding one for 12 or 20 hours is not something you want to do.

Furler for your jib/genny. You dont want to leave the cockpit to change sails, or lower and bag it. While Furling a jib creates an undesired sail shape, it is far out weighed by the ability to reduce headsail size.

A single line reefing system for the main. Remember all lines lead to the cockpit.

A solid attachment point for a jack line. As a mostly solo sailor, I jack line my self in EVERY time i am outside of Tampa Bay. I may still see land, but i am not leaving my boat!

New/newer sails. I was amazed at how much more control i had over my speed and power when I got new sails.

HTH-

Have fun!

Listen to Mustn'ts, child, listen to the Don'ts.
Listen to the Shouldn'ts, the Impossibles, the Won'ts.
Listen to the Never Haves, then listen close to me.
Anything can happen, child, Anything can be.
-Shel Silverstein

 

[anchorclanker]

Nothing like a little "think about the poor child" pandering to distort the thread even further?

The forum's now suggesting we get involved in handling child endangerment and abuse laws?

Well, if the the OP, and clearly you, wont, then who will?

Well, I will.

Actually I dont think the law would come into effect until it was attempted, and then only if someone got someones attention. In reality there probably wouldn't be anything done about it unless it ended badly.

All I know is I wouldnt take my kid out there in that boat, and I would hurt anyone who did. Its just not wise or responsible.

 

[anchorclanker]

Stu,

Why not just buy this tomorrow??

http://sailingtexas.com/201101/sbayfield25106.html

Now that's what I'm talking about.

 

[Jackdaw]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Guy,

The calculus of safe sailing is very simple.

To complete any voyage, you need three things.

1) SKILL - Your knowledge, and your ability to apply it both strategically and tactically
2) PREPARATION - Boat selection and readiness for a particular voyage
3) LUCK - Yes, dumb luck

The more you have of the first two, the less you need of the latter. Its that simple.

I personally try and minimize my need to lean a lot of door #3.

Because of #2 I'm not really 'wed' to boats. I've loved every one I've owned (7) but they had REASONS and PURPOSES why I loved them. If your needs change, get a new boat. It is unwise to try and make a boat something it is not. Sell it and buy one that matches your needs better. Much faster and cheaper in the long run. And safer.

 

[dohcdelsol93]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

to those of you who have stuck to topic, you've given me a great list to start with

my c22 is a 1988, its worth mentioning that many c22's have made the bahamas crossing with only stock rigging/sails/rudder set up...just as they came from the factory.

This thread was never made to ask how to make my boat a blue water vessel.

This was what upgrades would you add to it to make it a better boat for my intended purpose, it was directed to those to have upgraded their own c22's for racing/open water purposes, any who use theirs in SF bay I'm sure could give me some tips.

The plan is to hang in the keys, if weather is good to the SW then head to the dry tortugas, around cuba then to Isla Mujures, possibly cancun/cozumel then down to belize.

if weather is better to the east head to the bahamas, then possibly to the turks/ DR/sanjuan and so forth.

Safety of my family is/always will be first, we have much more survival/first aid training than the normal family as most of our family vacations are far off the beaten path where only a highly modified 4wd and a long hike will get you there and back. We will have an emergency life raft/back up hand held gps/epirb/flares/etc

I'll also be enrolled in a celestial navigation course this summer.

We are not attempting a sail across the atlantic. I realize the gulf can get choppy because of the shallow waters, high wind speeds and resulting choppy close waves.

I do not need another boat, I'm not going to be dumping massive amounts of money in this boat for this trip.

I can do all the work/upgrades myself. So I might end up with 6 grand in a catalina 22...last I checked a catalina 22 in perfect condition, galvanized trailer with extendable tongue sold for just about 5-6 grand.

The more I look into cruiser forums the more I see why such a select few cruisers give the whole bunch a bad name. I can't thank many of you enough for all the great info you've given to me on what to look for on these older catalinas, this thread is really directed to you guys the most as you guys have owned these boats, raced these boats and know what their strengths/weaknesses are.

For those of you that constantly come in to not only my thread but all threads where someone with a trailer sailor wants to make a simply 70 mile jump across the cut from miami to the bahamas....telling them how crazy and dumb they are. Not all of us want or can afford a 40 ft yacht...you may feel like Mr. Howell when you pull into the marinas and every dock hand is fighting over who gets to top off your fuel tank because they might get a tip, however your butt cheeks are so tightly squeezed together that when you walk it sounds like a song bird chirping. You don't care that the dock hand is working his tale end off in ninety degree heat and ninety eight percent humidity and he's hoping for just a five buck tip because every extra penny he gets will help him pay for college, you know...that 4 year party your parents paid for when you attended Cornell...but you didn't realize that for some people college is something that they work for...not something that is a family tradition. Or maybe you did work your tail off and paid for your own way to that college of choice, but now you've forgotten where you came from. You call yourself a cruiser, yet in your yacht you can't live without your memory foam mattress, your coffee maker, your lap top, smart phone and wifi, you travel to all these beautiful locations and treat the locals like dirt if they don't kiss your rear end or appear to be of your social economic class. I feel pitty for people like you, you miss out on so much in life, your too worried about image and the bottom dollar to ever really enjoy anything. You've forgotten what it's like to "rough it" and take a few risks in life. Unless the Bahamian is pumping your fuel, taking your order or stamping your passport/cruising permit you turn your nose up at them and pretend they are not even there. You blah blah blah go on about how important cruising flags are because it's courtesy and yet you treat the common folk of these places like dirt and when you do deal with the commoners it's usually to try to cut their throats on the price of a 20 dollar hand bag your wife doesn't even need and would be this persons monthly salary, but no you beat them down to ten bucks then wonder why the culture isn't as friendly to you as they were 20 years ago. It's because they have learned! Your money, your status symbol that you get from your high priced yacht doesnt mean anything to them.

So just because you would be miserable on an adventure in a c22 without your prozac and your DVD's and your instant coffee in the morning doesn't mean that it wouldn't be the trill of a life time to someone else.

So please...if you don't have anything to add about modifications/upgrades/common issues to look out for on a c22 please spare me and others that are staying of topic and don't post here.

People can relate to stories like that of Aaron Meder....not on how you auto piloted around the bahamas in your floating condo.

 

[Jackdaw]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

You gotta understand... Lots of people here have not sailed for MONTHS. ;^)

It can mess with your mind. And its the real live internet. You can't control who or how people respond. Like most people here, I like the Catalina 22. I've owned one. But you mention 'Catalina 22' and 'around Cuba and down to Belize' in the same post and you are bound to get peoples attention. For what you state in you last post, it a solid plan and a good boat for it. But you should really go easy on the personal lashings out against people you know nothing about. Its really not that classy.

 

[agprice22]

Holy cow dude... That was one great rant! Loved it! I think it is a bit off the mark, as most of the posters on the C22 forum are plain folk who actually sail the C22.

I do think the thread got tangled and hyperbolic, but let's not quibble over who killed who(m)!

You sound sane, capable, and patient. I'd sail over there with you.

Enjoy upgrading your C22. I love my little boat. I'll have $6000 in it easy by the time I'm finished, but it's worth 100 times that in my happy times on it with my wife and son and my little dog, for the peace and togetherness it gives us.

One word of advice for everyone on threads: validate what others say, and be respectful in disagreements. No one here is totally right or in full possession of the truth. Life is not about yes or no, it's about HOW. It isn't about either / or, it's about BOTH / AND.

Enjoy your cruise. Take jackets, the islands can get chilly in Winter (50-60s at night).

Andrew

 

[dohcdelsol93]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I was at the boat today examining the mast, I didn't have a mic on me to calculate the thickness but I did verify it is the flat sided mast, not the oval shape.

I'm missing the mast head but it appears that the halyard for the main is run internally in the mast, I like the idea for UV protection.

On my Venture I carry one 22 lbs danforth style anchor.

Being that the cat weights so much more I'm thinking of going up to 25-30 lbs. I like the spade style anchors but I like having less chain to deal with on the danforth.

I'm sure I'll be anchoring from sand to coral to grass and I'm sure it's been debated many times, do I stay with danforth style or go with spades? I'd like 2 large ones because I'm a heavy sleeper.

Is their a weight limit to what i can hang from the bow of the Catalina, 60lbs of anchors might be a bit much.

 

[KingAirDriver]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I think your 22 pound Danforth style is plenty big enough. That is rated for up to a 38 foot long boat.

I would get a second 8-10 pound anchor, or about a 11 pound bruce/claw style. They can be had cheap on the defender site.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

For those of you that constantly come in to not only my thread but all threads where someone with a trailer sailor wants to make a simply 70 mile jump across the cut from miami to the bahamas....telling them how crazy and dumb they are.

'Cept your OP said you were planning to go MUCH MUCH further. I think that's what hit the mark.

 

[philwsailz]

The plan is to hang in the keys, if weather is good to the SW then head to the dry tortugas, around cuba then to Isla Mujures, possibly cancun/cozumel then down to belize.

if weather is better to the east head to the bahamas, then possibly to the turks/ DR/sanjuan and so forth.

Pretty lofty float plan....

Safety of my family is/always will be first, we have much more survival/first aid training than the normal family as most of our family vacations are far off the beaten path where only a highly modified 4wd and a long hike will get you there and back. We will have an emergency life raft/back up hand held gps/epirb/flares/etc

Can you not see how the two quoted sections don't go together? You share that you plan a potentially Quixotic adventure while at the same time claiming safety for your family? I don't get it.

I have shared several things that will strengthen the boat, albeit at expense of comfort, and ironically at the expense of safety if you add too much in the wrong spot. I am not a naval architect, and I know you aren't either. Cause and effect is a crap-shoot when you go re-engineering a boat that is already really good for what it does but limited in other areas. Unfortunately, offshore passage making is not in Mr. Butler's design.

You don't need to be Mr. Howell and you don't need a 40'-plus boat to do your proposed trip/adventure. There are several affordable blue water boats out there that can be had for the cost of just barely more than a really nice C22, some even at 20-feet.

If you aimed your rant at me, it is unfounded. I've only sailed in the Caribbean twice, once in St. Thomas on a 12' resort rental monohull, the other in Jamaica on a Hobie. I was traveling on business, (sometimes my job sucks... ) both times. My sailing experience is largely on Oklahoma waters. They are sometimes very boisterous. My knowledge on maintaining a boat just like yours, (post 86 Catalina 22) is extensive, as unlike your fictional character I do my own work. AND I have done a LOT of work on basically the very boat you intend to go tilting against windmills on. I've been scared Sh£Tless on both my old Catalina 22's and only on fresh water. Unlike a previous poster, I have zero desire to join you even with infinite familiarity with the very boat you intend to use; it is because of this familiarity I find your plan lacking in prudent judgement.

I have shared my cautions because I care. I applaud your desire to cast off and go do exactly what you say you want to. Go for it!!!!!! I just ask you reconsider and figure out how to do it in a different boat. Fix the Catalina up. An 88 is a NICE boat! Use it, at home, and make it shine like a diamond! Sell it to a worthy new owner and apply those funds towards an inexpensive small blue-water boat.

I am comfortable sharing this post as I feel it at least falls on the majority side of sentiments following this thread.

I have told you things to do to improve on the ruggedness of the boat. I have not done so to lull you into a false sense of security in thinking that doing these things will magically give your boat capabilities it wasn't designed for. Even with all the beefing up, the Catalina 22 is still a fresh water and coastal day sailor. Do a bunch of mods? What you will get is a beefed up fresh water and coastal day sailor.

Sorry, sincerely. I know you don't want to hear it, but I am the guy who will tell the Emperor he is wearing no clothes....

 

[Stu Jackson]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Bravo, Phil.

 

[Chef2sail]

Very good Phil,


Some people do not open their minds enough to accept the truth. OP appears to have chip on his shoulder concerning other sailors who don't tell him exactly what he wants to hear. His obvious inexperience causes him to not understand and see the sound advice others like Phil have given and then go on some pathetic childish rant reminiscent of a teenager who didn't get the keys to the car? The rant was unnecessary and is a window into his personality and critical thinking ability in that he cannot it appears ignore posts here that are not what he expected and feels obligated to demean the posters. The advice of Phil and others including myself was given with good intentions and did not deserve the " Mr Howell" temper tantrum directed at the posters. Even that ridiculous analogy of some backwoods experience shows his lack of understanding what's a real emergency is like in a unpopulated part of the ocean with no solid ground under your feet, miles away from others with no one to rescue you so you can survive. Fighting an angry ocean is completely different than an on land experience with earth to fall on. It has nothing to do with size of boat or amount of funds in your bank account and has everything to do with experience and good well thought out choices. Those of s who already have walked the talk in the Caribbean have tried to uadvise him, to no avail

I say stand back and watch the guy" sink money into his "self proclaimed" blue water boat and attempt his journey. Hopefully he continues to post his successes and failures so others may learn from it. Hopefully he doesn't need to waste our money coming to rescue him and his family and has a great adventure. I am risk advergant and this epic fairy tale is fraught with risks I would not be willing to take. We are all different people and have different thresholds. His inability to play well with others hope fully will not affect his critical thinking.

I am a full believer in Darwinism let him go. Only the strongest survive.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Very good Phil,


Some people do not open their minds enough to accept the truth. OP appears to have chip on his shoulder concerning other sailors who don't tell him exactly what he wants to hear. His obvious inexperience causes him to not understand and see the sound advice others like Phil have given and then go on some pathetic childish rant reminiscent of a teenager who didn't get the keys to the car? The rant was unnecessary and is a window into his personality and critical thinking ability in that he cannot it appears ignore posts here that are not what he expected and feels obligated to demean the posters. The advice of Phil and others including myself was given with good intentions and did not deserve the " Mr Howell" temper tantrum directed at the posters. Even that ridiculous analogy of some backwoods experience shows his lack of understanding what's a real emergency is like in a unpopulated part of the ocean with no solid ground under your feet, miles away from others with no one to rescue you so you can survive. Fighting an angry ocean is completely different than an on land experience with earth to fall on. It has nothing to do with size of boat or amount of funds in your bank account and has everything to do with experience and good well thought out choices. Those of s who already have walked the talk in the Caribbean have tried to uadvise him, to no avail

I say stand back and watch the guy" sink money into his "self proclaimed" blue water boat and attempt his journey. Hopefully he continues to post his successes and failures so others may learn from it. Hopefully he doesn't need to waste our money coming to rescue him and his family and has a great adventure. I am risk advergant and this epic fairy tale is fraught with risks I would not be willing to take. We are all different people and have different thresholds. His inability to play well with others hope fully will not affect his critical thinking.

I am a full believer in Darwinism let him go. Only the strongest survive.

Yep. On ALL of the above.

And last I heard, Mr. Howell was washed up on a deserted island, from too small of a boat, and an incompetent sailing crew..

 

[dohcdelsol93]

chef2sail, your post are exactly the kind that are not welcomed in this thread. You cannot seem to get past the point that this isn't a thread about making the c22 a blue water boat ...this is a thread about making modification to an older vessel to make coastal hopping trips around the Bahamas and other destinations Caribbean. So please find another thread and op to harass.

 

[dohcdelsol93]

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Same goes for chef2sail

 

[philwsailz]

Phil your post are exactly the kind that are not welcomed in this thread. You cannot seem to get past the point that this isn't a thread about making the c22 a blue water boat ...this is a thread about making modification to an older vessel to make coastal hopping trips around the Bahamas and other destinations Caribbean. So please find another thread and op to harass.

I have no clue why you think the Caribbean isn't blue water. It can be very ugly. I have been on passage out of Ft. Lauderdale where on the first night we were running in 30-ft seas. This was on a ship full of seasoned crew and even they were sick.

Your plan by all posts is to throw all common sense and advice aside. I would do you a disservice to have played along with your folly. You have a chance at succeeding in your adventure. Then again, I have a chance of winning the lottery. The odds "seem" way different, but you don't know how much, do you?

Good luck, Godspeed, and we will all pray for your success. Be sure to file a float plan when you shove off so the Coast Guard knows to come looking.....

 

[dohcdelsol93]

can we stick to the topic...upgrades to a C22...nothing more, nothing less.

Seriously guys. Many have cruised around the bahamas on the c22 and had a fun time doing it. I've talked to another guy who did the belize and back from florida trip also in a c22.

I'm not breaking new ground here.