Moving away ?? The model changes for all sizes of Hunters around 2003 - 2005 all incorporated the straight cockpits.
Opinions on round cockpits?
- Thread starter JonnyQuest
- Start date
Moving away ?? The model changes for all sizes of Hunters around 2003 - 2005 all incorporated the straight cockpits.
Specifcally, which "newer" boats did you see with the trend to rounder cockpits.??
"Def. looks like a trend starting in the mid 80s or so with beam getting wider, cockpit benches farther apart, and then the curved benches kicked on and evolved later to a fully round clckpit. --Though I did read one comment elsewhere that Hunter was moving away from the round cockpits?"
No knowledge of the newer models, but I see that the attached 2002 H35.6 has straighter backs when compared to the 1997 model.
They both look nice, but my wife is not so keen on the curved cockpit judging by photos--concern about leg room for people sitting next to each other on either side of the curved areas. -- if that description makes sense to you all.
Haven't yet gone on to look at other manufacturers until we suss out the curved cockpit issue for our wants/needs. The discussion here has given us much food for thought.
Thanks, JQ
Scott, thanks for confirming what I had heard--that the newer boats no longer have the curved cockpit seating. I am just starting to look at newer boats (remember I'm considering "newer" in relation to my mid-70s O'Day!). I like the Hunter 37.6, have seen 1997 models with round cockpits. They are nice looking boats and probably the size and price range we'll be moving up to. There's a cockpit shot of a 1997 37.6 attached. (REAL round!)
No knowledge of the newer models, but I see that the attached 2002 H35.6 has straighter backs when compared to the 1997 model.
They both look nice, but my wife is not so keen on the curved cockpit judging by photos--concern about leg room for people sitting next to each other on either side of the curved areas. -- if that description makes sense to you all.
Haven't yet gone on to look at other manufacturers until we suss out the curved cockpit issue for our wants/needs. The discussion here has given us much food for thought.
Thanks, JQ
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That's an interesting take on the situation and pretty accurate.
I'm a big believer in getting gear that meets your needs, and always have respect when people spend their own money to make it happen. The thing I cannot put up with is de-evolution; designers taking the cheesy/easy way out to meet a perceived customer need that makes (in our case) a sailboat less of a sailboat.
What makes this more galling is that from a builder's perspective, good design is an NRE (Non-Recurring Expense) that they pay for ONCE, and every boat benefits.
Good design is good forever.
Hi Joe and Jackdaw,
Thanks for the comments. Based on them, my wife and I had a good conversation about the pros and cons of rounded cockpits and agree we need to consider that either design may fit our non-cruising/non-liveaboard needs. However, our one big concern is that (from photos) some round cockpits seem to be quite cramped. We'll need to climb aboard and see if that is the case when we start looking.
For isntance, this model appears to be a pretty short on leg space for a 37.6' sailboat (Hunter 376, 1996)...seems that the rounded cockpit seating here would be good for sitting at port but not neccessarily for sailing--shifting positions on tacks, or more importantly like going down below for margaritas etc.
Other model years might not be as dramatic as this one however.
Thanks for the comments. Based on them, my wife and I had a good conversation about the pros and cons of rounded cockpits and agree we need to consider that either design may fit our non-cruising/non-liveaboard needs. However, our one big concern is that (from photos) some round cockpits seem to be quite cramped. We'll need to climb aboard and see if that is the case when we start looking.
For isntance, this model appears to be a pretty short on leg space for a 37.6' sailboat (Hunter 376, 1996)...seems that the rounded cockpit seating here would be good for sitting at port but not neccessarily for sailing--shifting positions on tacks, or more importantly like going down below for margaritas etc.
Other model years might not be as dramatic as this one however.
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Makes me curious. Could you give some examples of "de-evolution" and "cheesy/easy way out" design features to which you are referring?
on our last trip to the BVI we chartered a Bavaria 40 with a rounded cockpit. Not one of us could get completely comfortable when the end of the day came or early morning. Trying to sit and read a book or write in a log was almost impossible. When sailing in late November with the Christmas winds we quickly forgot about the curved cockpit.
Sure.
Some background; I'm in the business of product design, and think (and perhaps OVER-think) about this subject a lot.
One of the things that happened in design say 15 years ago was this notion of 'Voice Of the Customer'; VOC for short. It's the idea that designers and companies should listen to their customers and give them what they need. Sounds great, yea?
Well often, really no. Most companies that rolled out VOC found out what some smart companies already knew; that customers really don't have a good idea of what they really want. It takes really good design work to suss out what is really being said.
Lets take some sailing examples:
We want a boat that really big on the inside
Some designers took this exactly literally, and pumped up their boats so that looked nothing like sailboats.
This Catalina has NO side decks. And you have to walk over the coachroof to get to the foredeck.
The 37 foot Hunters cabin is so wide that it has very narow side decks in the front, and none in the back by the cockpit.
How about thinking about the problem a new way; what people want is the FEELING of space. This 43 foot Beneteau has dropped all cabins under the cockpit completely; indeed it has much less room inside compared to other 43 foot boats. But the sense of space is much much larger; due to the inside living area being raised almost to deck level.
We need a boat that has shallow draft.
So the designer goes for exactly that; making boat with fixed shallow draft. Sadly this boat will not point well, is heavier and slower than its deep draft sister.
Like this 45 foot hunter, which has more hull draft than keel draft. A pig to windward, and still not all that shoal.
Better design; realise that even on big boats, keels do not have to be fixed. A lifting keel or a lifting centerboard can have the windward performance and stability of a deep keel boat, but can go into shallow anchorages.
Ovni 39 world cruiser
Pogo 12.5, 40 foot, 10 foot draft racer/crusier coming to the BEACH
Just a few examples. Its interesting to note that I chose these boats of 'good' design not totally by accident, as I wanted to show that good design can pay. In a 'down' market where sailboats linger on lots, there is a backorder and a waiting list for each of these.
Wow! Great post, Jackdaw. BTW, my wife and I recently went on a friend's 50' Bene like your 43' one (the Sense?). It does "feel" huge and spacious.
Lucky! I've been on a 43, but never a 50. That are truly amazing boats.
An interesting aside. It's well-know that like most European builders, Beneteau uses only outside Naval Architects and does not have an 'internal' team. 3 of these are in France, and one in the USA (Farr). On a rotating basis, they ask the teams to submit a 'way-out-there' design brief to meet future sailing needs. One that Berret-Racoupeau submitted became the Sense line. Later one that Finot-Conq submitted become the new, convertible Oceanus 38. Both are sold out for years. Hmm.
Excellent post Jack.
Gunni, we have a walk-thru transom on ours and more than often hear of people complaning of trying to get in and out of the cockpit. The "tailgate" is brilliant, I'd love to have that much space open when we're anchored out.
Gunni, we have a walk-thru transom on ours and more than often hear of people complaning of trying to get in and out of the cockpit. The "tailgate" is brilliant, I'd love to have that much space open when we're anchored out.
Scott, You ever try get off the back of a C&C 40 or Tayana37 ?
Tailgates are an over-complicated solution to a problem that the walk-thru & sugar scoop had already solved.
Ergonomics 101
One spends, or hopes to spend, a LOT of time in the cockpit, I know I do. I really, really, really appreciate the comfort of the cockpit on my boat.
1. The back of the cabintop is slight slanted to make a good, actually GREAT backrest.
2. The coaming height when seated leaning back against the cabin is the PERFECT height for an "armrest" for reading.
I've been on bareboats where the back of the cabin curves into the coaming (whether the seats are straight or not is immaterial in this instance), and there was simply NO way I could get comfortable leaning back there, because half of the backrest was taken up by the stupid curve.
Also beware of straight up & down cabin houses. It's very uncomfortable trying to lean back if there's no slant.
So, Jonny, I don't think curved or not may be the most important issue. Just sit down and pretend you want to read a book and see how comfortable it is.
Good luck.
Jack, thanks for the very good presentation.
Pat makes a VERY good point, and one that Jonny Q should check out very carefully, regardless of the shape of the cockpit.
One spends, or hopes to spend, a LOT of time in the cockpit, I know I do. I really, really, really appreciate the comfort of the cockpit on my boat.
1. The back of the cabintop is slight slanted to make a good, actually GREAT backrest.
2. The coaming height when seated leaning back against the cabin is the PERFECT height for an "armrest" for reading.
I've been on bareboats where the back of the cabin curves into the coaming (whether the seats are straight or not is immaterial in this instance), and there was simply NO way I could get comfortable leaning back there, because half of the backrest was taken up by the stupid curve.
Also beware of straight up & down cabin houses. It's very uncomfortable trying to lean back if there's no slant.
So, Jonny, I don't think curved or not may be the most important issue. Just sit down and pretend you want to read a book and see how comfortable it is.
Good luck.
Jack, thanks for the very good presentation.
Jackdaw, this was a great detailed post. But I am not entirely in agreement with some of your points.
The Catalina 250: manny trailer sailors have similar compromises and layouts in trying to make the most of boats that can be towed easily. The Ensenada 20 had this same layout in the early 1970s.
The 37 Hunter: those side decks are down right spacious compared to older designs. Older Bristols might have technically wider side decks but with chain plates in the middle it's harder to move forward than on the Hunter. Some of the older tartans and other Sparkman and Stevens designs, Cape Dories, Babas etc.
Personally I feel some of the designs you like are more performance cruisers and are not as live able as some of the designs you knock. A pure cruiser might think the Pogo's choice of upwind sailing performance over comfort is listening to the VOC of the racer set since a gentleman never sails to weather. Bottom line is that boat choice is a balance of compromises.
Interesting story on VOC, I have a friend that has extensively studied boat design, built boats and spent a fair amount of time researching various designs. We were in a shop in RI of a well known builder who has worked with some of the best known designers. He told us that these big time designers, Gary Mull in this particular case as we were discussing Freedoms, had zero input on the interior of the Freedoms and that the salesman designed the interiors based on VOC. My point is VOC is not a new concept in Yacht design.
To me boats are built to a purpose. That may be a cruising boat for a racer or a boat that is comfortable on anchor. As an educated consumer the challenge is to identify how YOU will use the boat and matching the correct design to your use.
Me, I am a Liveaboard cruiser with limited funds and high dollar tastes. I like sailing but upwind performance and speed are less important than comfort.
Just my thoughts,
Jesse
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Awesome, Stu and Pat! That helps clarify what really to look for. I've seen both that look appealing and both that look like pain devices. Good idea with the "get comfy and read a book" test.
I'll share that advice with Admiral Quest ;-)
Jessie,
I'm in totall agreement with you about the role of the buyer in the process. In the end, they vote with their wallets and support good design choices, and punish bad. The more informed they are, and the more in touch with what they really want, the better off they will be.
And you are right, I'm definitely on the performace end of the spectrum; We could see LIVING on that pogo, while many would find it way too austere for even a weekend cruise.
One great thing about design and innovation is it offers new reasons for consumers to buy new boats. This obviously is vitally important to builders, who when do not innovate often find their biggest competition for their new boats is an almost identical 10 year old model at half the price. It's why I'm jazzed about them new Catalina 27s. A clean break for the company, and a good step up for a 22 or 25 owner. I hope it does well.
Clay
