don, am i misremembering? didn't you host a topic about sailing with jib or main alone is not a good idea? now, on the c30 yahoo forum, they are saying that you would not say such a thing. take a look. mea culpa?
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I hope
I hope its OK cause I do it all the time, primary mainsail only when I want to keep things real simple. I know I read of long distance cruisers sailing with poled out foresails only all the time for downwind runs. No risk of a crash jibe.
I hope its OK cause I do it all the time, primary mainsail only when I want to keep things real simple. I know I read of long distance cruisers sailing with poled out foresails only all the time for downwind runs. No risk of a crash jibe.
Jib or main only
Mortyd: Is that the C30 forum with Max Munger, Bill Miller and Norm Bernstein? I'm on that list and I don't recall seeing the subject but could have missed it. I remember the sail trim forum topic but I don't remember the question and don't know what I said but it is a pretty easy one to answer. Maybe it just boils down to my personal preference on a single sail issue. I've seen a lot of wacky combinations - the best was a double reefed main with a 155. In some wacky cases I was able to ask the skipper why he selected a particular setup but in 95% of the cases I never got a straight answer. On the other hand Maccauley123 has a good reason and answer - he wants to keep it simple but he knows of another situation where the jib only might be applicable. As long as a skipper has a good sound reason for doing what he is doing for the wind speed and point of sail that he can do almost what he wants. It is the skipper who does not have a clue and is guessing that is a danger to himself and his crew. I assume we are just talking about a situation where the skipper is out for a LEISURELY SAIL and decides to use one sail or the other - anything else is a whole different ball game. It is my personal preference and on a masthead rig I would not sail with the jib alone. On a fractional rig sailing with the jib only would be a waste of my time. My reasons for selecting the main only are the main is much easier to handle (your not dealing with fairleads) plus it is a bit easier to handle weather helm than it is a boat falling off and the main is not the engine of the boat.
Mortyd: Is that the C30 forum with Max Munger, Bill Miller and Norm Bernstein? I'm on that list and I don't recall seeing the subject but could have missed it. I remember the sail trim forum topic but I don't remember the question and don't know what I said but it is a pretty easy one to answer. Maybe it just boils down to my personal preference on a single sail issue. I've seen a lot of wacky combinations - the best was a double reefed main with a 155. In some wacky cases I was able to ask the skipper why he selected a particular setup but in 95% of the cases I never got a straight answer. On the other hand Maccauley123 has a good reason and answer - he wants to keep it simple but he knows of another situation where the jib only might be applicable. As long as a skipper has a good sound reason for doing what he is doing for the wind speed and point of sail that he can do almost what he wants. It is the skipper who does not have a clue and is guessing that is a danger to himself and his crew. I assume we are just talking about a situation where the skipper is out for a LEISURELY SAIL and decides to use one sail or the other - anything else is a whole different ball game. It is my personal preference and on a masthead rig I would not sail with the jib alone. On a fractional rig sailing with the jib only would be a waste of my time. My reasons for selecting the main only are the main is much easier to handle (your not dealing with fairleads) plus it is a bit easier to handle weather helm than it is a boat falling off and the main is not the engine of the boat.
Jib only is a lot easier
than having to take a mainsail cover off and put it back on. Masthead rig, we do it all the time. The masthead rigged boats use their jibs for drive. Our boat goes nowhere (upwind that is) with just the main. Hunters and other fractionally rigged sloops would do things differently. This is becoming a topic like condensation in fuel tanks, lotsa urban leganends abound. There is no good reason to not be able to sail wiht just one of your two sails. Either one.
than having to take a mainsail cover off and put it back on. Masthead rig, we do it all the time. The masthead rigged boats use their jibs for drive. Our boat goes nowhere (upwind that is) with just the main. Hunters and other fractionally rigged sloops would do things differently. This is becoming a topic like condensation in fuel tanks, lotsa urban leganends abound. There is no good reason to not be able to sail wiht just one of your two sails. Either one.
Jib alone just great on my masthead rig
I currently sail a masthead rig (1980 Hunter 33 Cherubini) after having come from fractional rigs (racers). On a fractional rig, I would only reach / run in heavy winds with just the jib. Having the main up as well provided too much weather helm. With only the jib I couldn't point more than 80 deg to the wind. But on a frac rig with just the main I could maintain any point of sail-- and point quite nicely-- but beats were slow because there was no slot to increase the efficiency of the main. On my current (masthead) rig, I had to relearn everything I knew. In short, my single sail is my jib (105%, high cut). With just the jib I can sail on every point, including beating at 45 deg to the wind. In the heavy-air summer days on SF Bay, I frequently never bother with the main-- too hard to hoist and set. The jib is already hoisted on the furler, and I can control it easily from the helm, so operation becomes very easy. The "mainsail" becomes the "secondary sail" or the "lighter wind" sail. The mainsail functions to augment the power of the jib when conditions allow the "slot" to be properly created, but the boat is really driven by the jib. I've tried sailing by the main alone, and with a) the small sail area and b) the dirty air spilling over the mast, it wasn't very effective on any point of sail, except when reaching / running in 25+ kts. While beating, there just isn't enough power in the mainsail to propel the boat through the SF bay chop. I recommend that people really experiment with their boats-- especially in heavy weather-- to see what sail combinations work best in terms of ease, power, helm balance, heeling, etc. Then, consult sailing books or instructors and really figure out if what you observe matches the physics. Then go out and experiment more. There is no substitute for empirical boat knowledge when times get tough out there. This learning has been very helpful-- I used to look at those masthead rigs with the large jibs / genoas as being primeval and obsolet. But with that jib / genoa on a furler, and the primary winches and furling lines within reach of the helmsman, those rigs are actually a lot easier to sail than the more "high-performance" frac rigs, simply because of this "single-sail" potential. Chris...................
I currently sail a masthead rig (1980 Hunter 33 Cherubini) after having come from fractional rigs (racers). On a fractional rig, I would only reach / run in heavy winds with just the jib. Having the main up as well provided too much weather helm. With only the jib I couldn't point more than 80 deg to the wind. But on a frac rig with just the main I could maintain any point of sail-- and point quite nicely-- but beats were slow because there was no slot to increase the efficiency of the main. On my current (masthead) rig, I had to relearn everything I knew. In short, my single sail is my jib (105%, high cut). With just the jib I can sail on every point, including beating at 45 deg to the wind. In the heavy-air summer days on SF Bay, I frequently never bother with the main-- too hard to hoist and set. The jib is already hoisted on the furler, and I can control it easily from the helm, so operation becomes very easy. The "mainsail" becomes the "secondary sail" or the "lighter wind" sail. The mainsail functions to augment the power of the jib when conditions allow the "slot" to be properly created, but the boat is really driven by the jib. I've tried sailing by the main alone, and with a) the small sail area and b) the dirty air spilling over the mast, it wasn't very effective on any point of sail, except when reaching / running in 25+ kts. While beating, there just isn't enough power in the mainsail to propel the boat through the SF bay chop. I recommend that people really experiment with their boats-- especially in heavy weather-- to see what sail combinations work best in terms of ease, power, helm balance, heeling, etc. Then, consult sailing books or instructors and really figure out if what you observe matches the physics. Then go out and experiment more. There is no substitute for empirical boat knowledge when times get tough out there. This learning has been very helpful-- I used to look at those masthead rigs with the large jibs / genoas as being primeval and obsolet. But with that jib / genoa on a furler, and the primary winches and furling lines within reach of the helmsman, those rigs are actually a lot easier to sail than the more "high-performance" frac rigs, simply because of this "single-sail" potential. Chris...................
don, that's the correct forum and what i am referring to was a comment you made to a jib-only sailor about it being a bad idea and explaining why. when i quoted you, max and some others claimed you would not have said that. i have no desire to make any kind of deal about this as i do to hear either why i misremember or have you give those guys, why in fact, you feel the way you do. this all came up in a discussion of heavy weather sailing of catalina thirties and some seemingly silly ideas to me.
Two points
1.) When running only one sail, it is wise to consider the difference in stress that is placed on the rig. In lighter airs this really doesn't come into play, but when the wind is up it could become a factor. For example, with only the headsail set, the backstay has to take the additional strain that is normally distributed through the mainsail to the mainsheet. I have seen references that indicate this is a significant amount of extra stress. 2.) With both sails up, the boat is designed to be in balance in moderate winds. With one sail down, the center of effort of the sail that is in use will tend to lever the boat to windward (mainsail up) - weather helm; or leeward (headsail up) - lee helm. This might not be too noticeable in lighter air, but it quickly becomes significant as the wind gets up.
1.) When running only one sail, it is wise to consider the difference in stress that is placed on the rig. In lighter airs this really doesn't come into play, but when the wind is up it could become a factor. For example, with only the headsail set, the backstay has to take the additional strain that is normally distributed through the mainsail to the mainsheet. I have seen references that indicate this is a significant amount of extra stress. 2.) With both sails up, the boat is designed to be in balance in moderate winds. With one sail down, the center of effort of the sail that is in use will tend to lever the boat to windward (mainsail up) - weather helm; or leeward (headsail up) - lee helm. This might not be too noticeable in lighter air, but it quickly becomes significant as the wind gets up.
One sail only
Mortyd: A sailor, pilot or even a kit flyer can almost do anything (notice the responses) with the unit they are operating PROVIDED they know the capabilities of the thing they are operating. To confirm what I'm saying ask some of your dock neighbors about some element of sail trim and see the answers you get. Some talk the talk but after 5 minutes you know they have no idea what they are talking about. Where some sailors get in trouble is when they have little grasp of the concepts of sail trim and start doing things backwards or they make incorrect decisions for the situations they find themselves in. For example, sailing a masthead rig in heavy weather with jib only. The first sail you raise is the main and it is the last sail you take down. I sail with Max Munger in the C30 National events. He is one of the best skippers I've ever sailed with. I know he'll agree with me on this one. Post what I'm saying over there and see if you can get something going about sail trim instead of maintainence stuff.
Mortyd: A sailor, pilot or even a kit flyer can almost do anything (notice the responses) with the unit they are operating PROVIDED they know the capabilities of the thing they are operating. To confirm what I'm saying ask some of your dock neighbors about some element of sail trim and see the answers you get. Some talk the talk but after 5 minutes you know they have no idea what they are talking about. Where some sailors get in trouble is when they have little grasp of the concepts of sail trim and start doing things backwards or they make incorrect decisions for the situations they find themselves in. For example, sailing a masthead rig in heavy weather with jib only. The first sail you raise is the main and it is the last sail you take down. I sail with Max Munger in the C30 National events. He is one of the best skippers I've ever sailed with. I know he'll agree with me on this one. Post what I'm saying over there and see if you can get something going about sail trim instead of maintainence stuff.
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