I have been sailing my almost new 460 for about three months now and have a couple of problems with the forward holding tank, and am looking for advice on where to look. Problem 1 is the selector which sets to Wet or Dry bowl. The selector does not settle in the Dry position, and when you pump, there is a lot of back pressure. I often have to hold the selector to the Dry position to get it to work right. think the thing is broken and needs to be replaced. But if It can be fixed, all the better. Problem 2 is the apparent capacity of the same forward holding tank. I think it is either 20 or 25 gallons, but it appears to fill up very fast. When we pump out the tank, the discharge looks way too clear and clean, as if there might be a leak in the system letting fresh water in while under sail. Is there something that you'd recommend I can check here? Maybe this is related to problem #1? Unfortunately I live about 200 miles from the boat, so I have to plan ahead to bring the right tools and plan time to do appropriate maintenance. Your comments are appreciated!
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Had same problem
Dave: I had the same problem on my last boat. I had to hold the lever in the dry position otherwise there was back pressure for a lack of a better term. The head worked fine so I didn't do anything about it. I'm sure it probably needed rebuilding, but with your new boat that is not the case. I seem to recall that there is one brand of head that that problem is common to, but don't recall the name. I'm sure Peggy can answer that one. In terms of the holding tank filling prematurely...do you close the thru hull from the discharge of the mascerator when you are done? Sometimes when the mascerator is turned off the impeller blades can be in a postion to allow water to back flow into the holding tank. Other than that I can't think of another reason why it would fill so rapidly. Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
Dave: I had the same problem on my last boat. I had to hold the lever in the dry position otherwise there was back pressure for a lack of a better term. The head worked fine so I didn't do anything about it. I'm sure it probably needed rebuilding, but with your new boat that is not the case. I seem to recall that there is one brand of head that that problem is common to, but don't recall the name. I'm sure Peggy can answer that one. In terms of the holding tank filling prematurely...do you close the thru hull from the discharge of the mascerator when you are done? Sometimes when the mascerator is turned off the impeller blades can be in a postion to allow water to back flow into the holding tank. Other than that I can't think of another reason why it would fill so rapidly. Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
Problem #1 solved, #2 is a little harder
I had the same problem (problem #1) on my new 340. Pull your manual, call the menufacturer of the head and tell them the problem. Mine was made by Jabasco, I think. They recognized the problem before I could get it out of my mouth, sent me a complete replacement for the pumping mechanisim and it took about 15 minutes to replace. There was a plastic part that was shaved incorrectly during the manufacturing process. Had the new one in a week. Problem #1 solved. I, too, have a similar problem to your Problem #2 (the holding tank fills up too rapidly). I have heard Peggy say that a sediment builds up in the bottom of the tank (sludge) and this, apparently, is resistent to pumping. This weekend I took a flashlight and placed it so that it shown through the plastic tank and I could observe about 3" of sediment in the bottom of the tank --- of a freshly pumped tank. I was about to ask Peggy myself, if there was a chemical treatment that one could pour into the tank to liquify the sludge to make it easier to pump out? I was answering this post over lunch. I think I'll pass (no pun intended) on the rest of my sandwich...... Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility
I had the same problem (problem #1) on my new 340. Pull your manual, call the menufacturer of the head and tell them the problem. Mine was made by Jabasco, I think. They recognized the problem before I could get it out of my mouth, sent me a complete replacement for the pumping mechanisim and it took about 15 minutes to replace. There was a plastic part that was shaved incorrectly during the manufacturing process. Had the new one in a week. Problem #1 solved. I, too, have a similar problem to your Problem #2 (the holding tank fills up too rapidly). I have heard Peggy say that a sediment builds up in the bottom of the tank (sludge) and this, apparently, is resistent to pumping. This weekend I took a flashlight and placed it so that it shown through the plastic tank and I could observe about 3" of sediment in the bottom of the tank --- of a freshly pumped tank. I was about to ask Peggy myself, if there was a chemical treatment that one could pour into the tank to liquify the sludge to make it easier to pump out? I was answering this post over lunch. I think I'll pass (no pun intended) on the rest of my sandwich...... Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility
New parts, and I'll close the thru-hull
I suspect the back pressure on the pump is a defect and will follow up with the mfgr. Warranties sure have been handy. As for the fast-filling tank, I have the macerator discharge closed (or it is supposed to be...) - rarely ever get to three miles out so I never need to have it open. I usually have the intake open under sail (I know - this is not the way it should be) and will close it next sail to see if this reduces the fast fill. This is a new boat, so I hope there is not too much sludge built up yet. Enjoy you lunch
I suspect the back pressure on the pump is a defect and will follow up with the mfgr. Warranties sure have been handy. As for the fast-filling tank, I have the macerator discharge closed (or it is supposed to be...) - rarely ever get to three miles out so I never need to have it open. I usually have the intake open under sail (I know - this is not the way it should be) and will close it next sail to see if this reduces the fast fill. This is a new boat, so I hope there is not too much sludge built up yet. Enjoy you lunch
Several reasons tank can fill up too fast
Looks like your toilet problem has been identified and solved...Call jabsco for a replacement pump. How many times are you pumping the toilet on "flush?" Every pump puts half a gallon or more through the system, so it doesn't take long to fill up any size tank. Read the artcile called "flush with success" in this forum for a better way to do it (after you've replaced your pump). As for sediment...I doubt that a couple of inches on the bottom is making a significant difference in the capacity...no more than a 2-3 flushes. So don't worry about getting it out...just don't build up any more. Sediment is the result of chemicals that kill the bacteria necessary to break down solids and paper along with the ones that cause odor...solids and paper can only dissolve into little tiny particles which, along with chemical residue, settle to the bottom of the tank. If you're using a bio-active (live bacteria or enzyme) holding tank treatment, you shouldn't have any sediment...but if you're using a chemical, they only way to prevent sediment from building up is to make sure that whatever has settled to the bottom is stirred up enough to get most of it during pumpout, and keep enough water going into the tank to rinse out the rest. For more information about this issue read the Odor control article.
Looks like your toilet problem has been identified and solved...Call jabsco for a replacement pump. How many times are you pumping the toilet on "flush?" Every pump puts half a gallon or more through the system, so it doesn't take long to fill up any size tank. Read the artcile called "flush with success" in this forum for a better way to do it (after you've replaced your pump). As for sediment...I doubt that a couple of inches on the bottom is making a significant difference in the capacity...no more than a 2-3 flushes. So don't worry about getting it out...just don't build up any more. Sediment is the result of chemicals that kill the bacteria necessary to break down solids and paper along with the ones that cause odor...solids and paper can only dissolve into little tiny particles which, along with chemical residue, settle to the bottom of the tank. If you're using a bio-active (live bacteria or enzyme) holding tank treatment, you shouldn't have any sediment...but if you're using a chemical, they only way to prevent sediment from building up is to make sure that whatever has settled to the bottom is stirred up enough to get most of it during pumpout, and keep enough water going into the tank to rinse out the rest. For more information about this issue read the Odor control article.
Conservative flushers...
This last weekend we made sure that we minimized the flushing - usually two or three pumps to wet the bowl when necessary, and two or three to dispose. I think I mentioned before, the aft waste tank had dark waste when pumped out, and the forward was almost clean even though similar contents were contributed to both tanks, so I think I do have a leak somewhere. Haven't tried chemicals or other deoderizers yet - no need so far.
This last weekend we made sure that we minimized the flushing - usually two or three pumps to wet the bowl when necessary, and two or three to dispose. I think I mentioned before, the aft waste tank had dark waste when pumped out, and the forward was almost clean even though similar contents were contributed to both tanks, so I think I do have a leak somewhere. Haven't tried chemicals or other deoderizers yet - no need so far.
Plumbing problem?
On oujr 430, and on most of the production run of that boat, there was a plumbing installation error, which caused the pumpout or macerator to pump mostly fresh water. Check to see if this is a possibility on your boat also. Once the plumbing was refitted, all was well.
On oujr 430, and on most of the production run of that boat, there was a plumbing installation error, which caused the pumpout or macerator to pump mostly fresh water. Check to see if this is a possibility on your boat also. Once the plumbing was refitted, all was well.
George, please explain that "plumbing error?"
Do you mean that the pumpout/macerator was emptying your water tank AND your holding tank? 'Cuz that's the only thing I can think of at this time of night that would cause it to pump out "mostly fresh water"...and it doesn't sound too sanitary!
Do you mean that the pumpout/macerator was emptying your water tank AND your holding tank? 'Cuz that's the only thing I can think of at this time of night that would cause it to pump out "mostly fresh water"...and it doesn't sound too sanitary!
Dave, better read "flush with success"...
The method you're using to flush the head isn't filling up your tank, but it is most leaving sewage in the line to permeate the hose. As for not using anything in the tank because you "haven't needed" it...Does everyone downwind of your boat when you flush agree? No odor INSIDE the boat doesn't necessarily mean there isn't any out the vent line when you flush--and vice versa. In fact, the two almost always have different causes/sources...and require different fixes.
The method you're using to flush the head isn't filling up your tank, but it is most leaving sewage in the line to permeate the hose. As for not using anything in the tank because you "haven't needed" it...Does everyone downwind of your boat when you flush agree? No odor INSIDE the boat doesn't necessarily mean there isn't any out the vent line when you flush--and vice versa. In fact, the two almost always have different causes/sources...and require different fixes.
Not FRESH water...
Peggie, I'm afraid I didn't explain the plumbing mixup correctly. I meant clear sea water, not fresh water. I believe that the line from the deck fitting was connected to the inflow fitting of the tank rather than being teed to the outflow fitting and the macerator line, so that it apparantly was drawing from the the commode rather than the contents of the holding tank, and in fact, drew very little at all on attempted pump-out except what it could draw through the toilet and its pump. I understand that many if not all of the 430's had the aft tank plumbed this way. (Since I did not repair this myself, I am not certain of how it had been connected incorrectly)
Peggie, I'm afraid I didn't explain the plumbing mixup correctly. I meant clear sea water, not fresh water. I believe that the line from the deck fitting was connected to the inflow fitting of the tank rather than being teed to the outflow fitting and the macerator line, so that it apparantly was drawing from the the commode rather than the contents of the holding tank, and in fact, drew very little at all on attempted pump-out except what it could draw through the toilet and its pump. I understand that many if not all of the 430's had the aft tank plumbed this way. (Since I did not repair this myself, I am not certain of how it had been connected incorrectly)
430 Plumbing
George, I'm concerned regarding your comment that many if not all 430's had the aft head plumbed incorrectly. I have hull #42, and am not sure if I have a problem or not. What is your hull number? Will have to look to see whether I have a similar problem. Pete Burger KAILANI
George, I'm concerned regarding your comment that many if not all 430's had the aft head plumbed incorrectly. I have hull #42, and am not sure if I have a problem or not. What is your hull number? Will have to look to see whether I have a similar problem. Pete Burger KAILANI
Check the Vent
Dave, I had a similar problem with my Legend 37. Turned out the problem was that the vent had acquired a colony of Dirt Daubers that had totally clogged it. My bet is your vent is clogged as well. The reason you fill up so fast is that the pump out can't pump more than 15 - 250% without an open vent. Also, the back pressure is probably caused by unrelieved pressure, as well. Hope this helps. Rick
Dave, I had a similar problem with my Legend 37. Turned out the problem was that the vent had acquired a colony of Dirt Daubers that had totally clogged it. My bet is your vent is clogged as well. The reason you fill up so fast is that the pump out can't pump more than 15 - 250% without an open vent. Also, the back pressure is probably caused by unrelieved pressure, as well. Hope this helps. Rick
pressure in the tank
I did notice that there was some pressure released when I did take off the waste cap. I will check this as well. The tank has been filled up so it is not unlikely that the vent may have been plugged. Thanks.
I did notice that there was some pressure released when I did take off the waste cap. I will check this as well. The tank has been filled up so it is not unlikely that the vent may have been plugged. Thanks.
Dave..I had pressure too!
I had the same pressure problem that you are describing. I heard this hissing sound when I removed the deck cap. I pulled everything apart and checked the vent itself as well as the hose running to the waste tank. I found NO blockage. I get some SERIOUS ODOR from the forward vent when the head is flushed. How about you? Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
I had the same pressure problem that you are describing. I heard this hissing sound when I removed the deck cap. I pulled everything apart and checked the vent itself as well as the hose running to the waste tank. I found NO blockage. I get some SERIOUS ODOR from the forward vent when the head is flushed. How about you? Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
Bad odor - before there should be odor
I figured this odor might just be due to the sea life (or death) that was being pumped in through the intake. After several pumps (forward and aft head) the odor is less notable but still there, and the little chucks of stuff in the sea water seem to be less freqent after a few cleansing / priming pumps. I am going to take a look at the system when I get back to the boat in a couple of weeks. I never thought I love my flush toilets at home. Always better than those pit toilets camping.
I figured this odor might just be due to the sea life (or death) that was being pumped in through the intake. After several pumps (forward and aft head) the odor is less notable but still there, and the little chucks of stuff in the sea water seem to be less freqent after a few cleansing / priming pumps. I am going to take a look at the system when I get back to the boat in a couple of weeks. I never thought I love my flush toilets at home. Always better than those pit toilets camping.
Pete, email me...
Pete, If you have any questions about what to look for, email me at georgek2@earthlink.net. George
Pete, If you have any questions about what to look for, email me at georgek2@earthlink.net. George
Dave, sounds like you need to...
..clean out the intake and the channel in the rim of the bowl. Fortunately, it's a bit easier than some jobs. Fill a bucket about half full of fresh water laced with a liberal dose of our bowl cleaner C.P. (available from the online store here). Close the seaock...disconnect the intake hose from the thru-hull...stick in the bucket of water and flush it all through the head. If it IS intake odor, that should cure it. Do this each time the odor doesn't completely go away after a couple of flushes--which should only be a couple of times a season. It always seems to come as a shock to most boat owners that a marine toilet and the one at home have absolutely NOTHING in common except the bowl and seat. In fact, virtually nothing about a boat has anything in common with its household counterpart...something that seems to escape most boat owners notice too, and boat dealers aren't about to tell you 'cuz they're afraid of scaring you out of buying a boat. Everything in a house is just an appliance...but everything on a boat is working machinery...a complete system...a system that requires maintenance and sometimes repair. You cannot ignore ANY of it till it breaks as you can ignore home appliances till they break and then either call the plumber/electrician or just buy a new one...your boat will fall apart or even sink if you do. It's a boat...get used to the idea that you have to maintain everything on it. The bright side is that you'll be able to say you have nothing to do...'cuz you can always work on the boat.
..clean out the intake and the channel in the rim of the bowl. Fortunately, it's a bit easier than some jobs. Fill a bucket about half full of fresh water laced with a liberal dose of our bowl cleaner C.P. (available from the online store here). Close the seaock...disconnect the intake hose from the thru-hull...stick in the bucket of water and flush it all through the head. If it IS intake odor, that should cure it. Do this each time the odor doesn't completely go away after a couple of flushes--which should only be a couple of times a season. It always seems to come as a shock to most boat owners that a marine toilet and the one at home have absolutely NOTHING in common except the bowl and seat. In fact, virtually nothing about a boat has anything in common with its household counterpart...something that seems to escape most boat owners notice too, and boat dealers aren't about to tell you 'cuz they're afraid of scaring you out of buying a boat. Everything in a house is just an appliance...but everything on a boat is working machinery...a complete system...a system that requires maintenance and sometimes repair. You cannot ignore ANY of it till it breaks as you can ignore home appliances till they break and then either call the plumber/electrician or just buy a new one...your boat will fall apart or even sink if you do. It's a boat...get used to the idea that you have to maintain everything on it. The bright side is that you'll be able to say you have nothing to do...'cuz you can always work on the boat.
Mark, if there's pressure in the tank...
there IS a blockage somewhere that's preventing the air being displaced by new "incoming" from escaping out the vent. You say the hose is clear...have you checked the thru-hull? That little screen (it's the wrong thru-hull for a holding tank, but all the boat builders use 'em) very easily gets clogged up...it rusts...it collects pollen and dust...paper and solids from an overflow. Also check the vent fitting on the tank...if you've had an overflow, it could be clogged. You may even have a kink in the vent line that you can't see with it off, but develops as it bends around bulkhead. But whatever, wherever it is...a pressurized tank means only one thing: something is preventing displaced air and gasses from getting out of the tank. Unless you find and fix it, suction from a pumpout will almost certainly crack your tank sooner or later.
there IS a blockage somewhere that's preventing the air being displaced by new "incoming" from escaping out the vent. You say the hose is clear...have you checked the thru-hull? That little screen (it's the wrong thru-hull for a holding tank, but all the boat builders use 'em) very easily gets clogged up...it rusts...it collects pollen and dust...paper and solids from an overflow. Also check the vent fitting on the tank...if you've had an overflow, it could be clogged. You may even have a kink in the vent line that you can't see with it off, but develops as it bends around bulkhead. But whatever, wherever it is...a pressurized tank means only one thing: something is preventing displaced air and gasses from getting out of the tank. Unless you find and fix it, suction from a pumpout will almost certainly crack your tank sooner or later.
Peggy..Here's what I did
I removed the vent hose from the thru hull vent blew thru the vent..no resistance...removed the hose from the tank..blew again..no resistance..checked the entire length of the hose and there were no kinks, nothing was pinched and finally while the hose was off the tank I flushed the head and there was a fair amount of pressure (and smell) that came out of the tank. If there is blockage I can't seem to find it. Any other ideas? Thanks Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
I removed the vent hose from the thru hull vent blew thru the vent..no resistance...removed the hose from the tank..blew again..no resistance..checked the entire length of the hose and there were no kinks, nothing was pinched and finally while the hose was off the tank I flushed the head and there was a fair amount of pressure (and smell) that came out of the tank. If there is blockage I can't seem to find it. Any other ideas? Thanks Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
Sounds Familiar
I had similar problems with my 450 when new. The pump on the main head had a lot of back pressure. Dealer looked into it and found that for some unexplained reason,the joker valve had been sucked backwards and the pump couldn't push it back. This is very easily checked. If not that, then remove and disassemble the pump. It is actually more simple than I expected. My holding tank also filled up with seawater overnight. This proved to be a seacock that was leaking water through. The dealer fixed it and said that the valve handle was not positioned correctly so that when it looked like it was closed, it was still slightly opened. You might check this out and make sure that it is closed. I have also now changed out the pump on the main head by installation of the electric conversion available at West. This has been one of the best modifications we have made to the boat. It chews up everything (within reason). We cruised for five months without any clogs or problems. We call it "Mr. Binford". Goooood Luck!
I had similar problems with my 450 when new. The pump on the main head had a lot of back pressure. Dealer looked into it and found that for some unexplained reason,the joker valve had been sucked backwards and the pump couldn't push it back. This is very easily checked. If not that, then remove and disassemble the pump. It is actually more simple than I expected. My holding tank also filled up with seawater overnight. This proved to be a seacock that was leaking water through. The dealer fixed it and said that the valve handle was not positioned correctly so that when it looked like it was closed, it was still slightly opened. You might check this out and make sure that it is closed. I have also now changed out the pump on the main head by installation of the electric conversion available at West. This has been one of the best modifications we have made to the boat. It chews up everything (within reason). We cruised for five months without any clogs or problems. We call it "Mr. Binford". Goooood Luck!
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