older vs. newer fiberglass boats

[Maxx Mayhem]

You can fix nearly anything, and you don't always need brand new parts. That said. The biggest difference you will encounter in boats of various ages is the design. New boats will have different handling and stability characteristics than older ones. Certain design features common on oldwr boats only show up on the most expensive new ones. Being handy is better than being wealthy if you decide on an older boat. Depending on what needs to be fixed, you want to add up everything before deciding. I'm refitting a boat I got for free. H22, mt total cost will be low because I can do everything. If I could not, I'd have gone newer....

 

[ddrewry]

It’s really interesting to read the replies... maybe some are not doing the math correctly... a 30 yr old boat was built around 1990, that’s way after the old boats that were laid up with overly thick glass - done so because they had no idea how tough the stuff was and chose to be conservative. Much newer boats may have incorporated some kevlars, graphite, or other exotics butwhile stronger or stiffer, repairs can be a nightmare if needed. Likewise most decent boats since then used quality hardware, Harken, Lewmar, etc. these manufacturers tweak every year - after all their business is in new sales but that doesn’t mean the old stuff is bad and unless abused should not need replacement. Things like running rigging, sails, and even standing rigging are all expendable items - in the sense that they will need replacement at some point. Same for hoses, thru hulls, and engine heat exchangers. Old diesel motors will outlive you with some periodic maintenance - especially in a sailboat. Buy something you like the looks of, find comfortable, and in good shape. Save your money for electronics- they really do become obsolete in a very short period of time. Good luck!

 

[dlochner]

It’s really interesting to read the replies... maybe some are not doing the math correctly... a 30 yr old boat was built around 1990, that’s way after the old boats that were laid up with overly thick glass - done so because they had no idea how tough the stuff was and chose to be conservative. Much newer boats may have incorporated some kevlars, graphite, or other exotics butwhile stronger or stiffer, repairs can be a nightmare if needed. Likewise most decent boats since then used quality hardware, Harken, Lewmar, etc. these manufacturers tweak every year - after all their business is in new sales but that doesn’t mean the old stuff is bad and unless abused should not need replacement. Things like running rigging, sails, and even standing rigging are all expendable items - in the sense that they will need replacement at some point. Same for hoses, thru hulls, and engine heat exchangers. Old diesel motors will outlive you with some periodic maintenance - especially in a sailboat. Buy something you like the looks of, find comfortable, and in good shape. Save your money for electronics- they really do become obsolete in a very short period of time. Good luck!

Circa 1990 boats are likely solid laminates, i.e, they are not cored below the water line (an exception being J Boats, many of which were cored or other boats built primarily to race) and have lighter layups than boats build in the 70s and early 80s. By the early 2000s a number of newer techniques were developed, such as vacuum bagging and pre-preg glass which allowed for better resin infusion with less resin resulting in strong light boats.

An important consideration in building a hull is the resin to glass ratio. Too much resin and the hull becomes heavy and brittle, too little resin the hull is light and flexes too much. The older hand laid techniques often led to heavy boats because of excess resins.

The 80s also saw a shift from polyester resin to vinyl ester resin because of polyester resin vulnerability to blisters.

 

[rschuss]

I bought a 30 year old O'Day 5 years ago; and had to re-bed all deck attachments due to leaks. The rudder was fractured and needed a new blade; and the sails were crap. Bought a new suite of cruising sails from North; and I am as happy as can be with this glorious boat. I buy new presents for it when they go on sale, This boat will outlast me and the next owner, after I'm gone.

 

[Tally Ho]

I also have a 30-year old O’Day (322). i have owned the boat for about 6 years now.

I have done major (but not too major) maintenance projects since I purchased her...
- new Mack Pack and Lazy Jacks
- replaced some of the running rigging (traveller lines, jib sheets, main halyard
- renewed prop shaft and coupling
- pulled port side water tank and rebed fittings
- replaced some of the toilet discharge hose

i purchased a new main sail this month because I tore the 30 year old main. The Genoa is not original (PO bought a new one about 10 years ago).

I try to plan what the priorities are, and proactively spend some money each year. The only major unplanned expense was the mainsail. Had I not ripped it during a jibe, I would have tried to get another year or two out of it (it was only 30 years old after all). The big rip gave me the courage to tell the Admiral I needed a new sail ;-)

Yes, a 30 year old boat needs more love and care than a newer boat (I had a 1998 Hunter 280 before I “upgraded” to my 1988 Oday). But buying the RIGHT boat, and being somewhat handy and willing to do your own maintenance keeps the cost down.

I like the character and lines of older boats, but not the cabin layouts generally... center cockpit boats may be the exception. And I want a boat I can sail, not a project boat. Tearing off the top deck to recore is not my idea of fun...our sailing season on Lake Michigan is already short. I want to sail, and perform maintenance projects during the winter layup.

Greg

 

[Al Schober]

I think the age of the hull is a small consideration in buying a boat. I can't think of any boat that's been in production for 50 years where you would have to choose between old/new of the same boat. As a guess, I'd say most production boats had a construction run of 10 years (average).
First priority would be in selecting the boat (or boats) you would consider acceptable. Consider your intended use, and whether you prefer a quality vs economy construction. Basic stuff like full keel/attached rudder, fin keel/spade rudder. Do you want (not want) a centerboard?
Not going to get into how big. This involves where you're going, who you're going with, and for how long.

 

[Todd D]

Interesting comments. I do find the comparison of two new boats (15 and 30 years old) rather humorous. As a two boat owner I find little difference in the qualities of my new boat (47years old) and my old boat (83 years old). Both boats have relatively new systems and everything works the way it is supposed to on the two boats. Which one to buy depends a lot on what you like and how you expect to use the boat.

Fiberglass hulls, if well built, have not yet achieved any sort of age limit. Locally we have a builder that has been building fiberglass boats since about 1960. The early boats are in good shape if they have been well maintained and their prices reflect that. In contrast a cheaply lbuilt boat will have a definite lifetime before hull flexure does the glass in. You also need to be aware of things like core materials used in hull and deck. Balsa core can rot if the hull/deck was built to allow water intrusion. Another consideration is boat weight. Fiberglass costs money, so a light boat will not has as much glass in it. Glass will likely have been replaced by core materials (foam, balsa, etc.). If the hull/deck is cored then the details of the construction matter. An older boat with cored parts was certainly built by hand layup. A middle age boat may have used vacuum bagging and a newer boat may have been built by resin infusion. Furthermore, it matters how well whatever method was used was done. A poorly made resin infused hull can be junk compared to a well executed solid glass hand laid hull.

Basically, I would say that you should investigate the reputation of the builder. I would take a 50 year old Hinckley or Rhodes over a new Hunter or Catalina any day. That doesn't even consider the fact that a well maintained 50 year old Hinckley will likely have new top quality systems.

 

[Mark Maulden]

We bought our boat at 35 yrs old. I threw some bucks at the engine and used it for 4 yrs. During the last 7 yrs, I refit the boat and it was sailable during the four months of summer and laid up during the winter for refit work. Did all work myself and we have a boat good as new. I did repower two yrs ago and new main 3 yrs ago. New genoa this spring and we're done. I cannot recoup all my costs when it be becomes time to sell, but I have a boat that has cool lines, teak interior, well built, dependable and will take me anywhere I want to go. I also know the boat inside and out. Any issues, and I know exactly where to go. This is sorta the 10,000 ft version..

 

[petmac]

Interesting comments. I do find the comparison of two new boats (15 and 30 years old) rather humorous. As a two boat owner I find little difference in the qualities of my new boat (47years old) and my old boat (83 years old). Both boats have relatively new systems and everything works the way it is supposed to on the two boats. Which one to buy depends a lot on what you like and how you expect to use the boat.

Fiberglass hulls, if well built, have not yet achieved any sort of age limit. Locally we have a builder that has been building fiberglass boats since about 1960. The early boats are in good shape if they have been well maintained and their prices reflect that. In contrast a cheaply lbuilt boat will have a definite lifetime before hull flexure does the glass in. You also need to be aware of things like core materials used in hull and deck. Balsa core can rot if the hull/deck was built to allow water intrusion. Another consideration is boat weight. Fiberglass costs money, so a light boat will not has as much glass in it. Glass will likely have been replaced by core materials (foam, balsa, etc.). If the hull/deck is cored then the details of the construction matter. An older boat with cored parts was certainly built by hand layup. A middle age boat may have used vacuum bagging and a newer boat may have been built by resin infusion. Furthermore, it matters how well whatever method was used was done. A poorly made resin infused hull can be junk compared to a well executed solid glass hand laid hull.

Basically, I would say that you should investigate the reputation of the builder. I would take a 50 year old Hinckley or Rhodes over a new Hunter or Catalina any day. That doesn't even consider the fact that a well maintained 50 year old Hinckley will likely have new top quality systems.

This old girl is 43 years old. I'm still at it Todd. Logged over 1200 miles this past summer. My first time on here in quite awhile. Hope all is well.

 

[gettinthere]

One important aspect of your question is missing...
Are you comparing 2 somewhat similar boats?
For instance; Catalina vs Catalina or Beneteau vs Island Packet. The differences in design will be significantly less in the former vs the latter. Where will you sail? How much space will you want for guests? Performance vs comfort? Flat hulls with wing keels will be faster than a full or semi full keel. That full keel boat will be more comfortable in rough seas but the Bene will be faster and point better for fun daysailing. An older Island Packet will command more money in resale than the CatHunBen because of it's build. That old Hinckley Bermuda 40 will get even bigger bucks in resale. Chevy C10 pick up or Porsche 911?

 

[free cruiser]

I never saw osmossis before around 1980, when they changed the formula for resin, for fire retardent. Boats built before then, didn't have the problem much. You can row your dinghy along side a hull, reach down and feel the bottom, for severe ossmosis.
Chain plates bolted to rotten bulkheads are a common problem, as are rotten mast supports.
Older boats were built at a time when labour and materials were cheap. Thus they were far more strongly built than anyone can afford to build them now, and still stay in business. They also tend to have far more comfortable hull shapes, with better self righting capabilities, higher AVS numbers.
Foam cores don't rot ,unlike plywood and balsa. Many older boats were solid fibreglas ,no cores whatsoever.
A friend bought one of the first Crealock 37s . "Built like a tank "she said. After a few years of cruising in her, she visted the factory, and was horrified at how much they had thinned things down, and cut corners.
"Aren't you worried about safety" she asked ?
"Our only concern is the bottom line ,profit" was the reply.
Many older boats were far better built than later ones, which they found, had to be be skimped on, in order to stay in business.
Many started out with the best of intentions to build good boats. Then, the economic realities of having to compete with the "tried that, not economically feasable" old guard, and had to follow their compromises , to stay in business.

 

[ggrizzard]

"Amen", said an 'older' boat owner of a 40 year old boat!

 

[free cruiser]

A boat 30 years old, which has spent most of its life in a marina, its sails rarely seeing the sun , rarely leaving the forepeak, or the garage, for months and sometimes years on end ,is not likely to have much wear, or UV damage on its sails . Her rigging and mast are not likely to have much metal fatigue, or corrosion. If the engine is not seized, its unlikely to have much wear and tear.Thus, age of a boat is no definitive indication of its state or real value. Such boats can be a real deal, as can boats who's owner is dead, or in an economic bind ,and the family just wants to get rid of it. Don't judge the value of anything by the price tag on it. "You only get what you pay for",is a sleazy used car salesmans line, which has sold a lot of lemons for grossly inflated prices, and caused people to ignore some great deals.
With a good ,sound, older hull as a good, solid base ,one can spend a lot of money and time, and still be ahead of buying a new boat, especially if buying new includes bank interest. It is an interest free, pay as you go arrangement, with lots of enjoyable cruising in between, and a lot learned, making you far more independent and able to deal with any problems later, by your own hands, at sea, or overseas. People who only solve problems with a cheque book, tend to be quite useless, when things break or go wrong in the middle of nowhere , far from any boat yard or mechanic.

 

[Daveinet]

I'm going to throw a different take on this. When buying an older boat, you should consider the time period for when it was built, relative to the economic condition of the country at the time of the build. Manufacturers are always going to be building for profit and to their customer base. When the economy takes a nose dive, manufacturers go into survival mode. Corners are cut, the higher paid workers who actually know what they are doing are laid off and the upper management and accounting departments try to squeeze out every last ounce of profit they can soak out of their brand name value. When the economy is doing well, companies invest in innovation, trying to gain that edge over the competitor. There is always some lag time for a company to react, so you may have a year after the economic downturn and lag on recovery.

I pay more attention to RVs and cars, but that scenario is so obvious in those industries. RVs are the worst. Sailboats may be a little different in that in the 70s and 80s, there was just a major glut of boats. Manufacturers have been trying to compete with that glut for the past 30+ years and have had difficulty surviving, let alone responding to the buying public.

 

[jssailem]

@Daveinet I do not buy the concept of "Corner Cutting" that would put a boat at risk, i.e. cheap manufacturing products that create blistering or hull failure at the keel. That lead to a closing of the company. Who would take that path if they wanted to survive.

What I do believe happens is a reduction in volume due to manpower adjustments. A process of keeping the best staff, while broadening the jobs they cover, and a change in features - stripping down the model features to appeal to a market that is still buying.

Such a plan is not always successful, but it has a better chance than keeping cheap labor with limited skills and making inferior products that the market place will view as lemons and avoid.

Looking at hulls as the difference in boats that are 15 years apart, you need to examine

1. hull performance - different shapes give different speed, ride, seaworthy feel and material service.
2. hull maintenance - How has the owner maintained the boat
3. hull condition - are there blisters, voids, core moisture issues, proper or poor thru hull installation, stress cracks, damage repairs, poor build or fairing issues.

And perhaps a bit of luck in finding a boat that will meet your imagined needs.

One of the less obvious issues is the layout of the interior as meeting space wants/needs and ease of service. Many posts here on the forum ask "How do you get into the space to change/repair/replace the leak/the broken/the needs adjusting thing on the boat. In doing your exploration of a boat the clearer your vision is about how you want to use the boat the more you will be empowered to look beyond the bling and explore the functional.

just my morning opinion... Perhaps I need some coffee.

 

[dLj]

I'm going to throw a different take on this. When buying an older boat, you should consider the time period for when it was built, relative to the economic condition of the country at the time of the build. Manufacturers are always going to be building for profit and to their customer base. When the economy takes a nose dive, manufacturers go into survival mode. Corners are cut, the higher paid workers who actually know what they are doing are laid off and the upper management and accounting departments try to squeeze out every last ounce of profit they can soak out of their brand name value. When the economy is doing well, companies invest in innovation, trying to gain that edge over the competitor. There is always some lag time for a company to react, so you may have a year after the economic downturn and lag on recovery.

I pay more attention to RVs and cars, but that scenario is so obvious in those industries. RVs are the worst. Sailboats may be a little different in that in the 70s and 80s, there was just a major glut of boats. Manufacturers have been trying to compete with that glut for the past 30+ years and have had difficulty surviving, let alone responding to the buying public.

The difficulty for me on knowing the time period for boats is that beyond a couple major time periods, I have no idea where one would get that information w.r.t. a specific boat manufacturer. Should I look at the years that manufacturer was in business and select boat years towards the middle of their production? That's under the assumption initial years they were working out production kinks, end years trying to survive, as you suggest.

I tend to look at boats in a very individualistic manner. Older boats especially will often have had multiple owners, with each having their own idea of what they wanted on the boat. That can manifest in some really bad choices, from my perspective.

But this all ties back to the OP asking is it better to buy an older boat vs a newer boat based on economics. That is a complex question with no single answer. The answer is - it depends.

All of the dependencies are the costs associated with the cost comparison between what you want to have and how much it will cost after buying a boat to arrive there. The advantage of the older boat is typically the lower initial cost compared with the newer boat. The hull is a small part of that cost-wise. There is no reason to discount an older boat due to age and hull integrity, as a general rule, certainly there are exceptions. Significant costs arise in refitting a boat. There are also performance considerations also, as newer designs tend towards better performance.

Access to the various parts of a boat to fix/adjust/etc as @jssailem said above is both difficult to assess and so important in a boat!

dj

 

[rschuss]

A lot of reasoned and seasoned input here. My the take is, do your homework, don't rush and hire a professional to help you, when there is a significant investment.

 

[Daveinet]

@Daveinet What I do believe happens is a reduction in volume due to manpower adjustments. A process of keeping the best staff, while broadening the jobs they cover, and a change in features - stripping down the model features to appeal to a market that is still buying.

I work in an industry that manufactures plastic welders. We supply to a broad range of industries, everything from automotive to medical and everything in between. I work in product support, which means I see first hand how businesses are run. Our equipment requires intelligent life to operate, and a reasonable amount of inteligent maintenance. When the equipment breaks, I'm the guy who gets the phone call. What I described is sadly common practice. You might want to think that the good guys are the ones they keep, but the pencil pushers only care about short term numbers. The guys who know what is going on are usually better paid, and very often are the targets. It only make sense short term, and when companies are in survival mode, that is all that matters. They figure once business picks up, they will hire the smarter more expensive workers. If you want to be able to afford to keep the good employees, you need a lot of capitol to hold you over during the down swings. We find this is especially true in the automotive industry. Automotive is the most cut throat, low margin, do it cheap industry in the country. Every time there is an economic downturn, our service department gets bombarded. Product support requirements go way up, because no one knows what they are doing. From the outside, it may not make sense, but that is the sad reality of how the world turns. I've watched it for the last 20+ years.

So when watching what time periods of when not to buy a boat, look at when the past recessions were. So if you look at when the last recessions were, '75, '82, 92, '02, and 09. A couple years before a recession is probably the best years.

 

[jssailem]

Interesting perspective.

 

[Mr Fox]

I can't think of any boat that's been in production for 50 years where you would have to choose between old/new of the same boat.

I happen to have one for you, the Marshall 22. Every single one ever made (first hull 1962) is still sailing, and because you just call Marshall and ask for your part, most are well maintained. They also don't blister, and have always used the exact same layup schedule and materials.

Whoops sorry my love of catboats got the better of me again, off my soapbox now

Point is there are so many variables possible in this situation, but I like Don Casey's view - (I'm paraphrasing) with an older boat you can replace broken things with new and make it the exact boat you want, and probably wind up at a lower cost than a newer boat that you want to change things on but won't because they still work great.