OldCat where do you place tell tales for max performance.
- Thread starter caguy
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Now I am in trouble
And on the big board too...This started in a thread on the C22 board, but we sought a wider audience.
My view: A lot of great sail trim stuff is a bit complex for the newbie. So, I am trying to work up a simplified step-by step approach for newer sailors. Start real simple - add complexity and completeness at each next step. My goal is to write up a set of training tips for newer sailors to get close to the Don Guilette level, but break it into small lesson-sized steps. I will give up well before the expert level - I will leave that to the real experts & become a student.
Hence the problem - what to take out so the near beginner does not feel overwhelmed and how to pace the lessons.
Next post will be my stab at it for someone first learning to read a telltale.
OC
My opinions on sail trim for beginners:
Intro:
(Ignoring for now very light winds; and heavier winds where control and heeling are problems)
Telltales, telltales, telltales – get them streaming aft. Sail trim guides are guides, not absolutes. For the C22, start with the C22 trim guides, but differences in sail cut, age and resultant stretch mean that guidance is not absolute for your boat. If your telltales flow, your sail is decently trimmed.
In addition to the obvious stock stuff like sheets, halyards, traveller and genoa tracks, a C22 must have:
Genoa:
OC
edited to correct oddities pasting from a word processor.
Intro:
- I am not an expert but I like to think that I have studied this some and that I am a decent teacher. I'll stop and provide other sources when the discussion gets beyond early intermediate trim.
- Much of 'traditional' sail trim is wrong, especially stuff about the slot effect, and often twist as well. If it is not based on the work of Arvel Gentry and C.A. Marchaj – it is probably BS.
- What follows will be simplified over many sail trim manuals. I believe that they are information overload for newer sailors. The opinions below apply to upwind sailing and reaching.
- I focused on the C22, ask if your boat is different and something does not seem right.
- Telltales, your sails need them. Most experts that I have talked to prefer the strip kind over yarn, but Ullman put yarn on my new Genoa. I think that the green and red strips are easier to see on the far (leeward) side of the sail. Flatten them by placing them in a book or under your berth cushions for a while.
- See the picture attached for help.
(Ignoring for now very light winds; and heavier winds where control and heeling are problems)
Telltales, telltales, telltales – get them streaming aft. Sail trim guides are guides, not absolutes. For the C22, start with the C22 trim guides, but differences in sail cut, age and resultant stretch mean that guidance is not absolute for your boat. If your telltales flow, your sail is decently trimmed.
In addition to the obvious stock stuff like sheets, halyards, traveller and genoa tracks, a C22 must have:
- A low friction outhaul of 4:1 or more.
- A boom vang, again preferably 4:1+
- A boom downhaul or Cunningham, 3:1-4:1
Genoa:
- Genoa Telltales: One each side of the sail, one a little higher than the other so that you can see both at the same time. On a C22 mount them as high as you can but below the boom where the helmsman can see them easily from a windward position at the helm. Don't mount them where they can snag on a sail seam.
- Mount them 24-30” aft of the luff. This is a bit far aft but it makes them more forgiving. You don't need to be frustrated when learning.
- Use the C22 trim guide above as your guide to sheeting the Genoa – the distance off the spreader method is easy to use. Observe the curve of the sail so you can still get it OK when you cannot go to the lee rail. Use the inboard track if you have one and center the car on its track while getting started (possible exception is a 150 Genoa to the outer tracks, I have a 135)
- The leeward telltale is the most important one to get streaming. The windward one will be tougher to get working, especially if it is crinkled.
- The Key: Either push the TILLER in the direction of the flapping telltale or sheet the sail towards it. Close hauled you will steer – on a reach, take your choice. Windward telltale flaps about: bear off, or on a reach, sheet in. Lee telltale flaps: head up or sheet out.
- Three telltales on the leech, at ¼, ½ and ¾ of the way up.
- Get the Genoa set first and sail close hauled (important for beginner mainsail trim).
- C22 Close Hauled: Light wind, pull the traveller up to windward. Medium wind, center it. The C22 has a short end boom traveller, so this moves the end of the boom 6” or so.
- The main leech telltales should stream aft – sheet toward the direction they point if they are off to one side. Use the mainsheet to get as many of the three telltales flowing as possible. Snug the vang so that the boom does not lift when you drop to a reach or need to sheet out in a gust. If you have a loose vang, the boom rises when you sheet out. Then effective draft of the main sail increases. You heel over more than you should have from sheeting out.
- Do the best that you can to get the mainsail leech telltales to flow. It may be tricky to get them all to flow until you learn about sail twist in a “next step” trim discussion.
- You may be luffing the main sail - about a foot or so back along the luff on a C22 will form a bubble - don't worry about it.
- The point of maximum draft on the mainsail should be 40-50% from the luff. Never let it get aft past 50%. Tighten the boom downhaul or Cunningham to keep draft forward as the wind builds, otherwise the point of maximum draft gets blown aft.
- Seriously consider motoring rather than keeping sail up and pushing past your experience level.
- This is not a small boat storm tactics guide, another discussion, another time.
- Let's plan to deal with more telltales, travellers, twist, draft depth, excess heeling and sailing in a bit heavier wind in a later lesson.
OC
edited to correct oddities pasting from a word processor.
Attachments
Some information that is probably more appropriate to your level:
http://www.arvelgentry.com/Telling_tales.htm
http://www.arvelgentry.com/telltales.htm
http://www.arvelgentry.com/A_Trim_Primer.htm
I use: three sets of telltales on the Genny*. Two sets down low like the first link above and one set up high. My lowers are where I can see them, just below the boom line. I don't use a middle set on the Genoa, some do. I don't use the middle set partly to keep it simple, and partly because I have a light boat on a gusty lake and I like to stay on the windward side as much as possible. One tale set up high makes for a faster twist adjustment - also I am not sure how I would screw up a middle telltale on the Genoa if top and bottom were correct.
On the main: three leech telltales as my previous post. Plus one mid-chord telltale, placed in line with the lower leech tale - as it appears at 10-15 degrees of heel. This telltale should be positioned just aft of where the Genoa leech shadows the main sail. If I remember - this should be about a foot back of that shadow - some modification for boat size - I think I am about 9" back. Now that I have a backstay adjuster I will add mainsail mid chord tales at the height of the other leech tales.
The mid chord lower main telltale is for setting the outhaul. Let's see if I understood Don Guilette and RichH: Trim everything else, ease outhaul until lee midchord telltale flaps, tighten until it flows.
Leech main sail telltales tell you about sheeting angle and twist. I have a short traveller, so I vang sheet. Boats with longer travellers can use that to sheet out (change angle of attack of the sail) and mainsheet plus vang to control twist.
I take newbies like scouts out on the water - hence my interest in SIMPLE lessons to start - and my post above. What I wrote in the post above may still be too complicated for them. This post is probably more helpful to you - if not enough info - post over on the sail trim board. Get your Master's degree from Don and your PhD from RichH. I only have an Associates degree in this subject (or I am still in Kindergarten?). This is my (feeble?) attempt to interpret their info and stuff like the links above.
Best, OC
*note: I am going to add a full set of Gentry tufts to my new head sail as soon as I get a light wind day to do it.
Re: OldCat where do you place tell tales for max performance
Thanks, OC for doing this. As a beginner, I struggle with what to do when as far as trimming sails. Sometimes what feels like the correct thing to do, isn't.
Reading these tutorials really helps.
Now, for the right weather to put it into practice.
(BTW, I followed from the Catalina 22 rig tuning thread.)
Thanks, OC for doing this. As a beginner, I struggle with what to do when as far as trimming sails. Sometimes what feels like the correct thing to do, isn't.
Reading these tutorials really helps.
Now, for the right weather to put it into practice.
(BTW, I followed from the Catalina 22 rig tuning thread.)
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