I have a 1980 Catalina 22, and while I have definately learned a lot about sail trim from reading everyones posts, I would like to know how big of a role old sails play into the equation of speed. My sails are 20 years old, in great condition, but still 20 years old. I realize I have a loss of power due to the age, but is that loss 10% of 60%. Please let me know your thoughts on this subject. Stephen Saunders
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Impossible to Say
Sails may look nice and white but there is no telling what kind of shape they are in without actually looking at them while hoisted. I suspect that original factory 20 year old sails are going to reduce your speed and affect your pointing abiity but will still serve your needs for day sailing and cruising. If you aare going to race, time for new sails.
Sails may look nice and white but there is no telling what kind of shape they are in without actually looking at them while hoisted. I suspect that original factory 20 year old sails are going to reduce your speed and affect your pointing abiity but will still serve your needs for day sailing and cruising. If you aare going to race, time for new sails.
What does great condition mean?
Stephen: What does "great condition" mean? Do you mean that the edges are not frayed and the stitching is still good? If you have a sail maker look at them you will get a good opinion of "great condition". A sail that is more than 4-5 years old is typically not in "great condition" if it has been used. The fabric tends to stretch and gets baggy. When you put a new sail against a 20 year old one you can really see the difference. You will be able to flatten it in heavy winds and you boat will sail faster and flatter when properly trimmed. Have a sail maker look at the sails and ask them about the condition.
Stephen: What does "great condition" mean? Do you mean that the edges are not frayed and the stitching is still good? If you have a sail maker look at them you will get a good opinion of "great condition". A sail that is more than 4-5 years old is typically not in "great condition" if it has been used. The fabric tends to stretch and gets baggy. When you put a new sail against a 20 year old one you can really see the difference. You will be able to flatten it in heavy winds and you boat will sail faster and flatter when properly trimmed. Have a sail maker look at the sails and ask them about the condition.
New Sails
The answere to your question is 100% imporvement. You, of course, will never know the effectiveness of new sails until you hoist them up and sail with them. 20 year old sails are just that. Sail on BD
The answere to your question is 100% imporvement. You, of course, will never know the effectiveness of new sails until you hoist them up and sail with them. 20 year old sails are just that. Sail on BD
Big gut?
When you trim main in tight, it should look more like a airplane wing than a parachute. If your sail has a big gut, it affects its ability to create lift, particularly when pointing. When I replaced my 13 yo main, I'd say my speed about double on a point, and I could point higher. Reaching the gains were not as great, but noticable. Downwind doesn't make much difference, you want a baggier sail on a run. Also behaves much better when the wind pipes up. The gut in the old sail created too much power, I can now reef later and there is less healing for any given wind speed.
When you trim main in tight, it should look more like a airplane wing than a parachute. If your sail has a big gut, it affects its ability to create lift, particularly when pointing. When I replaced my 13 yo main, I'd say my speed about double on a point, and I could point higher. Reaching the gains were not as great, but noticable. Downwind doesn't make much difference, you want a baggier sail on a run. Also behaves much better when the wind pipes up. The gut in the old sail created too much power, I can now reef later and there is less healing for any given wind speed.
1 to 1.5 knots for us
A new main on our '77 h27 re[lacing the 23 old one added 1 to 1.5 knots, while reducing heel in moderate winds by 5 percent. Have a sailmaker come and look. This is a free service from the good ones, and lead us to the specific replacements we made. David Lady Lillie
A new main on our '77 h27 re[lacing the 23 old one added 1 to 1.5 knots, while reducing heel in moderate winds by 5 percent. Have a sailmaker come and look. This is a free service from the good ones, and lead us to the specific replacements we made. David Lady Lillie
I would replace them...
with newer used sails. You will get much better performance than you are getting now at a fraction of the price of new ones. Last year I bought a mainsail for a C27 for $275. This sail was rated "very good" by a reputable sail consignment loft. The sail has about 75% of its useful life left and it had a lot of features that my original one did not. You can also try selling your old sails. I sold my 20 yr old main jib and genoa for a total of $600!
with newer used sails. You will get much better performance than you are getting now at a fraction of the price of new ones. Last year I bought a mainsail for a C27 for $275. This sail was rated "very good" by a reputable sail consignment loft. The sail has about 75% of its useful life left and it had a lot of features that my original one did not. You can also try selling your old sails. I sold my 20 yr old main jib and genoa for a total of $600!
However, as far as speed goes...
a bigger factor is how fair your boat's bottom is. My speed was down by 1/3 (4 kts max from over 6 kts )last year due to barnacles and slime. FInd a good bottom paint (e.g. Micron Extra) and stick with it.
a bigger factor is how fair your boat's bottom is. My speed was down by 1/3 (4 kts max from over 6 kts )last year due to barnacles and slime. FInd a good bottom paint (e.g. Micron Extra) and stick with it.
and for less than.........
$1200 you could have NEW sails on the boat. Check them out here on the Catalina Owners store.
$1200 you could have NEW sails on the boat. Check them out here on the Catalina Owners store.
Be careful when buying mail order sails!
I would pay extra for a local loft for service and cloth quality.
I would pay extra for a local loft for service and cloth quality.
Mail order does not mean lesser order
Mail order companies can provide the same or better quality -- and service -- than local lofts. We use one loft that does a wide variety of cruising sails and another that is one of the top loft in the country for racers. there are plenty of local guys who don't have the experience, the support, or the staff to proivide what they do. As with any product, there are high-end suppliers, and discount suppliers. You typically get what you pay for. The distribution channel is a totally separate issue.
Mail order companies can provide the same or better quality -- and service -- than local lofts. We use one loft that does a wide variety of cruising sails and another that is one of the top loft in the country for racers. there are plenty of local guys who don't have the experience, the support, or the staff to proivide what they do. As with any product, there are high-end suppliers, and discount suppliers. You typically get what you pay for. The distribution channel is a totally separate issue.
Don't get mail order and off shore mixed up.
There is obviously a mis-understanding of cheap off shore sails and mail order. The products that are represented on sites like the SailboatOwners store are of the highest quality products to be found anywhere. When you shop around for sails there is typically very comparable prices when you are trully buying the same product (same weight, same brand cloth, same features etc). When you have a local loft come to your boat and measure and consult with you, you are going to pay extra for that service. If you know what you want and can follow instructions for the measurements, you can save money. There are only a couple of ways to cut the cost of making sails. You need to cut the cost of labor (pay less for the cost of cutting the cloth and sewing) and cutting the cost of the materials (cheap cloth, lighter weight cloth, cheap accessories). Beyond this you are only dealing with the amount of profit that vendor has to deal with. So it's up to you to decide, do you need the consultation and personal hand holding or can you do this transaction over the phone and do some of the work yourself? You decide.
There is obviously a mis-understanding of cheap off shore sails and mail order. The products that are represented on sites like the SailboatOwners store are of the highest quality products to be found anywhere. When you shop around for sails there is typically very comparable prices when you are trully buying the same product (same weight, same brand cloth, same features etc). When you have a local loft come to your boat and measure and consult with you, you are going to pay extra for that service. If you know what you want and can follow instructions for the measurements, you can save money. There are only a couple of ways to cut the cost of making sails. You need to cut the cost of labor (pay less for the cost of cutting the cloth and sewing) and cutting the cost of the materials (cheap cloth, lighter weight cloth, cheap accessories). Beyond this you are only dealing with the amount of profit that vendor has to deal with. So it's up to you to decide, do you need the consultation and personal hand holding or can you do this transaction over the phone and do some of the work yourself? You decide.
Savings on Labor
Speaking of which, there is a very reputable company, Sailright, I believe, that makes all the panels for a given sail, then ships them to you. You follow instructions for the stitching and assembly. I have never checked, but it seems like you could get quality and savings and some very valuable experience. Anyone done this?
Speaking of which, there is a very reputable company, Sailright, I believe, that makes all the panels for a given sail, then ships them to you. You follow instructions for the stitching and assembly. I have never checked, but it seems like you could get quality and savings and some very valuable experience. Anyone done this?
Sailrite
I don't have personal experience but I've heard from folks that the quality really isn't that fantastic. If you're looking for really high quality, long term sails, I'd choose a good sailmaker. BUT if you going cheap (but not necessarily so easy), Sailrite is definitely something to look into. LaDonna
I don't have personal experience but I've heard from folks that the quality really isn't that fantastic. If you're looking for really high quality, long term sails, I'd choose a good sailmaker. BUT if you going cheap (but not necessarily so easy), Sailrite is definitely something to look into. LaDonna
old can be best
we have '89 26.5' hunter with original u.k. sails. always given to local sail loft for washing and checking over every season - average of 45 dolars a yer. still beating much larger boats along barnegat bay with all sails up. cannot all be due to the capabilities of the complement on board our boat but good, if not most expensive sails, and a very well designed boat which sails very well close to ad off the wind. only good quality epoxy bottom paint - not the expensive racing bottom paint systems some people use. if i were you, i would have one or two sail lofts check your sails and have any wear and tear put right, ask them if the sail has become badly mishapen, such as the main becoming baggy in its shape - yu should have an idea of that yourself. if you have looked after your sails fairly well in the past they should be good for much longer yet. speed is not all to do with sails but their trimming, the condition of your boat generally which includes the bottom - having no areas where the paint is pitted or in indifferent condition, the ability of the helmsman and crew in handling the boat to greatest advantage. which includes having winches and all running gear well maintained. i might also add the complements' fitness! somethging i have noticed that towards the end of the season on our boat which is docked in the water is that she does not slip through the water so fast even if only noticable to an experienced skipper. the hull becomes dirty and even those few small barnacles on the water line make a difference. this seems a shame as as the season progresses, we, the complement are getting in better practice, etc.! check and consider everything else before the expense of buying new sails. from own experience you can change and renew everything but often the performance is no better than the person handling at the helm. hope some help. ted.
we have '89 26.5' hunter with original u.k. sails. always given to local sail loft for washing and checking over every season - average of 45 dolars a yer. still beating much larger boats along barnegat bay with all sails up. cannot all be due to the capabilities of the complement on board our boat but good, if not most expensive sails, and a very well designed boat which sails very well close to ad off the wind. only good quality epoxy bottom paint - not the expensive racing bottom paint systems some people use. if i were you, i would have one or two sail lofts check your sails and have any wear and tear put right, ask them if the sail has become badly mishapen, such as the main becoming baggy in its shape - yu should have an idea of that yourself. if you have looked after your sails fairly well in the past they should be good for much longer yet. speed is not all to do with sails but their trimming, the condition of your boat generally which includes the bottom - having no areas where the paint is pitted or in indifferent condition, the ability of the helmsman and crew in handling the boat to greatest advantage. which includes having winches and all running gear well maintained. i might also add the complements' fitness! somethging i have noticed that towards the end of the season on our boat which is docked in the water is that she does not slip through the water so fast even if only noticable to an experienced skipper. the hull becomes dirty and even those few small barnacles on the water line make a difference. this seems a shame as as the season progresses, we, the complement are getting in better practice, etc.! check and consider everything else before the expense of buying new sails. from own experience you can change and renew everything but often the performance is no better than the person handling at the helm. hope some help. ted.
Local Lofts
You will usually get service from the local loft(e.g. UK and North in Annapolis) on a sail you buy from them. If your mail order sail is not what you were expecting you are SOL. Local lofts go out to your boat and take measurements so you will get a perfectly fitted sail instead of one off the rack. It is worth the small premium.
You will usually get service from the local loft(e.g. UK and North in Annapolis) on a sail you buy from them. If your mail order sail is not what you were expecting you are SOL. Local lofts go out to your boat and take measurements so you will get a perfectly fitted sail instead of one off the rack. It is worth the small premium.
MJ, I have to take issue
Not all mail order operations, but some, and our chandlery in particlular, does not sell off the rack sails. Each sail is custom made and comes with a very high level of service. _Nobody_ has ever been SOL if they had a problem. I speak not just for our operation but others, as well. There are ceretainly some that do business in the way you suggest, but not all.
Not all mail order operations, but some, and our chandlery in particlular, does not sell off the rack sails. Each sail is custom made and comes with a very high level of service. _Nobody_ has ever been SOL if they had a problem. I speak not just for our operation but others, as well. There are ceretainly some that do business in the way you suggest, but not all.
sailcare
Has anyone had experiance with sailcare. The company that has that LaMauney reconditioning process. Will it give the sails an extra two to three years.
Has anyone had experiance with sailcare. The company that has that LaMauney reconditioning process. Will it give the sails an extra two to three years.
MJ, what is your agenda?
MJ: First, what do you do for a living? Have you had a bad experience with "MAIL ORDER" in the past? Have you ever ordered a sail from a mail order company? As far as I know most companies give you explicite direction on how to measure your boat for a sail. I personally do not know if ANY lofts that have sails sitting on their shelf just waiting to screw us. On the other hand, I live in a sheltered world and I am not an expert in this area. I am just asking so MAYBE you can share your experience with us.
MJ: First, what do you do for a living? Have you had a bad experience with "MAIL ORDER" in the past? Have you ever ordered a sail from a mail order company? As far as I know most companies give you explicite direction on how to measure your boat for a sail. I personally do not know if ANY lofts that have sails sitting on their shelf just waiting to screw us. On the other hand, I live in a sheltered world and I am not an expert in this area. I am just asking so MAYBE you can share your experience with us.
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