Old(er) middle America sailor with Keel questions

[mdsdurango]

I'm new here, first post, new thread.
I've owned three sailboats in my life; a sunfish, a force 5, and an O'Day 22. All my sailing has been on lakes in the midwest. I now live in Colorado, I'm approaching retirement age, and strongly considering relocation in about five years to a So Cal west coast community. I want to sharpen my sailing skills and buy a boat that I can sail here on lakes and then trailer to coastal waters for coastal crusing only.
I've been looking a lot - but I have questions. The boat I have currently focused on is a 1988 O'Day 272LE. The boat is selling for a good price and is in excelent condition. What is concerning me - it has a wing keel. Great for the lake here in Colorado but how is a wing keel in deeper, or more to the point, wavier water? Is the wing keel built solo for shallower, calmer water?
I'll start with this and see what other questions come up.
Looking forward to meeting the members of this forum and learning from you all.

Mike

 

[shemandr]

I don't know the specifics for that boat but I have a winged keel on my 356. A winged keel will not perform as well upwind as a fin keel. A winged keel can be a fine coastal cruiser. In fact it has advantages in opening up more shallow anchorages and more choice in dockage due to the shallow draft. A winged keel does get some of the ballast low on the keel which is better than if you had the same length keel with no wing. In general I think the winged keel was a fad of sorts more created by marketers than navel architects. Because a boat has a winged keel would not disqualify the boat for coastal cruising for me.
BTW, are you really going coastal cruising or will you be using it as a day sailor?

 

[CaptDon01]

Wing Keels

We have a wing keeled version of a Catalina-22 and simply LOVE it! I've heard folks say boats with a wing keel boat will hobby-horse in rough water. I've not noticed this, but then again our little boat is fairly loaded down, so that might be a reason. We've trailer-sailors, so the big advantage for us is zero maintenance over a swing keel, plus the ease of launching. Yes, we do probably lose some pointing ability, but all things considered, we pretty happy with our boat. We've had two wing keeled boats since we moved out to San Diego, a Capri-18, and now our C-22, and found the performance and stability just fine. Don't overlook a trailerable sailboat. When we first moved back out here, we too thought we would get a 27-30' sailboat. Then we met up with the trailer sailors, and knew we needed a trailerable sailboat. You'll find SoCal sailing is GREAT!, and with a trailerable boat, it really opens opportunities to destinations that a bigger sailboat would prevent you from going to. Also, there are TONS and TONS of boats out here. What might seem like a deal inland, isn't that good of a deal compared to a boat out here. Transporting a 27' boat out here will not be a small task. Check out Craigslist's boat sections around SoCal. Another big bonus sailing in SoCal, no matter how warm it might get during the day, you'll never spend a hot muggy night onboard in SoCal, and NO BUGS!!!

Good luck with the move,

Don

 

[CalebD]

I have sailed on an oday 272. It sails just fine but because of the shorter "shoal" keel you may have to reef the main sail sooner than you would with a deeper/heavier keel.
We got grounded on the oday 272 and could not get off the sand in an ebbing tide. As all the water receded the boat actually stood up on its wings! The boat just stood there on the beach. This was in the LI Sound which has a tidal range of about 8'.
We waited for the tide to come back in and happily left that spot.

 

[JohnShannon]

The wing keel at a given depth outperforms a fin keel. This was demonstrated by the Australians in the Americas cup.

Now everybody trades in that advantage for shallower draft. So the idea is that your wing keel boat will have about the same performance as the regular fin keel but will enjoy a shallower draft.

If you want to get an idea of the performance hit (or not) try to find PHRF ratings for your boat, in WK version and standard.

 

[tkanzler]

My H340 wing keel version (4-1/2 ft draft) had 600 lb more ballast than the fin keel version (6 ft draft). That big bulb of a wing was needed to compensate for the reduced keel depth. Made the boat 600 lb heavier, of course.

 

[mdsdurango]

Thanks to all posts thus far. Seems I should not rule out the boat simply becuase it has a "shoal" keel. That's good to know. I'm not real into racing (and winning) so the slight edge of the upwind advantage does not bother me.
To address some of your questions and comments;
Shemander - I would like the bigger boat simply because I would like the ability to use it as a cruiser (a few days most) and not just a day sailor. However day sailing will be the primary usage.
Capt Don - thanks for your input. I've owned a 22 and I'd like to go just a step beyond. One advantage to the fin keel is its trailer ability. I own a construction company so I have a big truck. Old but big. The long haul from Colorado to California would be the longest I would want to tow for sure.
I have really searched the boat sales and this seems to be a pretty fair deal. Not a steal. But a very good price for a boat in exelent condition with a trailer. Prices on most the web sites I've scoured are well in line or above the asking price for this one. I've looked at a lot of options from all around the states, old project boats to new.
CalebD - one good thing about the wing keel I suppose, you can still have dinner on board while high and dry.
Thanks John for your input as well. I like to hear from the tech guys even though I am not one.
T,,, I have seen this is true. That the wings are heavier. How does that effect the sailing?
Slower? Deeper water line? Obvious is trailer weight but once in the water?

Great to get answers.
Thanks to this forum.
I will keep you up to date.

Mike

 

[Pat]

O'Day did a ton of testing to determine the 'wisdom' of coming out with the 272...they
owners of O'Day were afraid it would be considered a 'gimmick'. In the tests, the 272
did not point as high, but off the wind the boat sails very well. I've enjoyed racing the 272 in our club races (Wed. nights), and out here on the prairie it blows...on the plains of Kansas..I even learned to take advantage of the furling headsail by putting a single reef in the main and going with a 100 % headsail to the windward mark....the main sail is a single line system which is very reefable from the cockpit...and as soon as we passed the windward mark, we unfurl the headsail and hoist the full main...we didn't win
for other reasons...namely too many crew changes, but it was great fun. In my opinion after 26 years with our 272, my only complain with the wing on concerns the
chord length of the keel...it needed to be longer as the boat seems a little tippy at the dock when people are coming aboard...It is not tippy on the water sailing..just remember it likes to be reefed... the rudder is deep and the cabin below w/stove and
4 cu. ft. cooler is very homey...we have lanterns, a good stereo and life is good.
C.Raymond Hunt, Inc. designed the boat which is a standout on the water and in port.
They did an article for the O'Day magazine and their only complaint with the boat was
the tippieness at the dock due to the short chord length....Hope this help! Patrick in
Wichita

 

[mdsdurango]

Thanks Pat. I'm an old Kansas City guy. I had my 22 on Smithville lake KC MO.
Dated a sweet Wichita gal before packing up for Southwest Colorado.
Did you buy your LE new?
You have given a great review. I'm leaning more and more towards this O'Day because of these responses.

Mike

 

[CalebD]

I will add that the cabin of the O'day 272 is extremely generous compared to my older Tartan 27.
That is a big plus if you plan on spending some time on her.

 

[tkanzler]

T,,, I have seen this is true. That the wings are heavier. How does that effect the sailing?
Slower? Deeper water line? Obvious is trailer weight but once in the water?

Since I haven't sailed both versions of the same boat, I couldn't say for certain, but with an extra 600 lb of lead hanging under there, I would think it would sit a little lower. I always thought it should point a little tighter to the wind, but I never raced it, and didn't really care that much. Better sails might make a noticeable difference. So would a better skipper. :dance:

Oh, and no trailering that boat, at 11,000 lb bone dry. One of the big reasons I sold it and got this trailer boat.

By the way, that 272 is a sharp looking boat.

 

[CaptDon01]

Mike,

When did you have your 22 at Smithville Lake? We kept our original C-22 there. Her name was "Quality Time"

This ocean sailing is sure different from sailing on inland lakes. Set the sails, set to course on the autopilot, sit back and watch the world go by.

 

[mdsdurango]

Captian Don,
I had my 22 on Smithville lake from 93 - 97. In 98 I packed up and moved to Colorado. I did some sailing out of San Diego last month. We took a Catalina 29 out to Coronado Island on a beautiful day. Once out of the harbor I don't remembering changing tack coming or going. 2' foot swells, great steady wind, HUGE school of dolphins. It was a great day! I want to go back. Now!

I'm going to have a look at the 272LE next weekend. It is beautiful in the pictures.

 

[CaptDon01]

You would've been at Smithville the same time we were. I moved the boat to Clinton in 97 or 98, had the boat at Smithville for about 4 years prior to moving it to Clinton. We were members of the Paradise Point Yacht Club.

We've done the trip down and around all the Los Coronado's Islands a couple years ago. Sailed out of Mission Bay and came back to the city docks in San Diego Bay. Covered 82 miles acording to the GPS,(it was a long day). San Diego has wonderful steady wind,(normally). I love setting the sails, putting her on autopilot, and kicking back watching the world go by.

Don

 

[mdsdurango]

modifications to hulls interior

In the attached picture there have been two doors cut into the interior parts of the hull of the O'Day 272LE. I can't imagine there is much storage behind these two doors. Other than not liking the looks of the oak kitchen cabinet door style - is there any reason to be concerned about this modification?

 

[Joe Blizzard]

Other than not liking the looks of the oak kitchen cabinet door style - is there any reason to be concerned about this modification?

Access panels for something, maybe?
My boat had a little kitchen-cabinet style door in the cabin when I got it, and I replaced it with one of these: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?17267 Purely aesthetic, of course, but it looks more like it belongs there.