okay, some proper questions

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dfrancis23

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Aug 19, 2013
32
oday 23 nockamixon
So I'm gettinga lot more confidant with the 23, had it on the lake today and pushed it a little hard, just to verify my bullhead repairs were sound,they are :)
Healing at 35 degrees may not be efficient, but it's fun.
So, jib tracks, I don't seem to be able to set a nice run from jib to cam cleat, it's a very hard pull to get the jib tight.
Could this be caused by being too high on the furler?
Secondly, the Vang on the23 is a joke, the little clevis that holds it to the mast strap, is so weak, you can't do anything with the vang. So, do I really need it?
 
centerline

centerline

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Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
the vang IS helpful if the hardware is strong enough to allow it to do its job properly.

as for trimming the jib sheet... of course its hard to pull without using some kind of advantage... depending on the wind strength and the angle that the wind is coming across the jib, you could easily have a couple hundred pounds of pull on it.

you need to wrap a winch before the cam cleat... use the winch to pull the sheet.
OR, if you dont have winches, then you need to luff a bit to ease the jib load, quickly trim the sheet and get back on the wind....
 
agprice22

agprice22

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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Centerline has it... You need winches to pull a jib sheet under load!

Thanks,

Andrew
 
Scott On Eagles Wings

Scott On Eagles Wings

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Jan 22, 2007
268
Oday 23 Cedar Creek Marina Bayville NJ
The vang is fairly important. Our first season with the boat we where running with the wind at night, having a great time when we got hit with a much stronger gust of wind and we found ourselves sailing by the lee (I had no idea what that meant at that time.) We had a strong un-intended jibe in the dark and the main sheet hardware got stuck in the back stay. We could not release the geneo or the main. The wind was strong and had us laying pretty much flat in the water before the main realeased when the bow turned and headed to wind and we were able to release everything. I was so scared even my wife new it, I don't even want to describe her feelings. No injurys and we did not break the kids or the boat, but lesson learned.
We got home from the trip and I installed Jam cleats for the Geneo and a vang for the mainsail.

The vang can also be used to flatten out your mainsail in heavy winds to de-power it a bit. It also helps you to control the sail shape on just about all other points of sail. We love it and would never sail without it.
 
agprice22

agprice22

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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
The vang can also be used to flatten out your mainsail in heavy winds to de-power it a bit. It also helps you to control the sail shape on just about all other points of sail. We love it and would never sail without it.[/QUOTE said:
Yes, but use the cunningham and outhaul to flatten your sail too. Less draft in the sail will give you less drive, but it will allow you to sail closer to the wind, point higher. Tighten the vang to keep the boom down. Thanks, Andrew
Click to expand
 
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dfrancis23

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Aug 19, 2013
32
oday 23 nockamixon
agprice22 said:
Centerline has it... You need winches to pull a jib sheet under load!

Thanks,

Andrew
Click to expand
I have winches, and use them, I'm talking about the angle that the line runs from the jib to the winch/cleat
It seems to pull more down than back, but if I more the jib sheet blocks back on the rails, then I lose the straight run into the winch/cleat
 
centerline

centerline

.
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
dfrancis23 said:
I have winches, and use them, I'm talking about the angle that the line runs from the jib to the winch/cleat
It seems to pull more down than back, but if I more the jib sheet blocks back on the rails, then I lose the straight run into the winch/cleat
Click to expand
a photo would help...

in your first sentence you say "I'm talking about the angle that the line runs from the jib to the winch/cleat"...... I am assuming you mean from the jib sheet trim block to the winch.

moving the sheet blocks back on the rails should lower the lead in angle to the winch... is it so low that the line keeps climbing out of the winch and fouling?

the sheets dont need to be in a perfect lead to the winch, but only good enough to keep the line on the drum and from climbing on itself while winching.... the design of a winch is to allow for some lead in angle deviation, but everything has its limits.

I can only assume that you are wrapping the winch correctly (first wrap on the bottom and the tail coming off the top wrap to the cleat), so if you are having override issues, it can also be assumed that the winches are not set up at the correct angles to the sheet lead in.... you may need to add some fairing blocks under the winches.

OR, another thought... how far are the cleats from the winch? could the lead angle off the winch to the cleat be so steep that its holding the wraps down on the winch and not allowing them to slip upwards as the winch is turned and takes up more line?. if that is the case, you must move the cleats farther away, or put fairing blocks under them (or both) to allow a good relaxed lead angle off the drum to the cleat, as the wraps need to be dynamic on the drum, whenever the drum is rotating.:D
 
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dfrancis23

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Aug 19, 2013
32
oday 23 nockamixon
I'll take some pics next time I'm at the lake
But to try and explain...
so the sheet comes from the Jib, through the trim block to the winch to the cleat
If I have the trim block in a position that allows the sheet to hit the winch without coming back on itself, it is so far forward that it's pulling more down than back on the Jib, which in turn makes it very hard to trim the Jib.
Putting the block further aft, gives me a nice Jib shape/control, but almost runs forward again to the winch.
Thinking about it now, it may be that the trim blocks are not swiveling as they should, hmmm, may have just figured this out :)
 
Indysailor

Indysailor

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Oct 10, 2009
1,100
Catalina 27 3657 Lake Monroe
It's not a huge deal to have your blocks aft of the winch, but on my boat the proper position for them is usually quite far forward. When I want a rounder shape and/or less twist, I use the stationary block and at close hauled the sheet will pull almost vertically from clew to block. On a few occasions, I have slid the blocks aft of the winch in an effort to twist off the sail. I have a 130% genoa.
If you have the long tracks, my guess is that they run so far aft in order to be used for spinnaker blocks. I don't have one, so I can't say for sure.

Anyway, without the benefit of a picture, it's hard to visualize this first. However, knowing more about your jib may help. Is it a genoa, does it come past the mast, is the foot clearing the life lines, etc.? From your description, I am having trouble visualizing the size of the sail.
 
Richard19068

Richard19068

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Jun 11, 2004
1,926
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Turning blocks

dfrancis23 said:
I have winches, and use them, I'm talking about the angle that the line runs from the jib to the winch/cleat
It seems to pull more down than back, but if I more the jib sheet blocks back on the rails, then I lose the straight run into the winch/cleat
Click to expand
I don't know the setup on a 23 but it sounds like you could use a turning block somewhere aft of the jib fairlead. Your sheet would go through the fairlead then to the turning block and then to the winch. You would position the turning block so the sheet always has a proper angle from that block to the winch so it doesn't matter if the fairlead is forward or aft of the winch, wherever it belongs for the size of the jib and point of sail.
 
Scott On Eagles Wings

Scott On Eagles Wings

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Jan 22, 2007
268
Oday 23 Cedar Creek Marina Bayville NJ
agprice22 said:
Yes, but use the cunningham and outhaul to flatten your sail too. Less draft in the sail will give you less drive, but it will allow you to sail closer to the wind, point higher. Tighten the vang to keep the boom down. Thanks, Andrew
Click to expand
I use those also. Thanks
 
D

dfrancis23

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Aug 19, 2013
32
oday 23 nockamixon
Indysailor said:
It's not a huge deal to have your blocks aft of the winch, but on my boat the proper position for them is usually quite far forward. When I want a rounder shape and/or less twist, I use the stationary block and at close hauled the sheet will pull almost vertically from clew to block. On a few occasions, I have slid the blocks aft of the winch in an effort to twist off the sail. I have a 130% genoa.
If you have the long tracks, my guess is that they run so far aft in order to be used for spinnaker blocks. I don't have one, so I can't say for sure.

Anyway, without the benefit of a picture, it's hard to visualize this first. However, knowing more about your jib may help. Is it a genoa, does it come past the mast, is the foot clearing the life lines, etc.? From your description, I am having trouble visualizing the size of the sail.
Click to expand
Comes a little past the mast, I was told it was a 110%
I'll definitely take some pictures when I get up there this weekend, thanks for the help so far though.
 
Indysailor

Indysailor

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Oct 10, 2009
1,100
Catalina 27 3657 Lake Monroe
dfrancis23 said:
Comes a little past the mast, I was told it was a 110% I'll definitely take some pictures when I get up there this weekend, thanks for the help so far though.
Click to expand
Just a guess, but it sounds like you are close hauled if the sheet is pulling down rather than in. What was the wind speed and your angle to it?
 
Indysailor

Indysailor

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Oct 10, 2009
1,100
Catalina 27 3657 Lake Monroe
dfrancis23 said:
About eleven knots, gusting to seventeen, and yes, close hauled
Click to expand
Here is my guess, but it's only that. To me it sounds like you are not heading in to the wind enough if you're close hauled and heeling at 35 degrees with a 110% genny in those winds. Secondly, if you're close hauled, you don't really have any sheet left, except to be pulling down on the clew. This sounds more like a sailing issue than a question of where the block should be.
 
D

dfrancis23

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Aug 19, 2013
32
oday 23 nockamixon
Indysailor said:
Here is my guess, but it's only that. To me it sounds like you are not heading in to the wind enough if you're close hauled and heeling at 35 degrees with a 110% genny in those winds. Secondly, if you're close hauled, you don't really have any sheet left, except to be pulling down on the clew. This sounds more like a sailing issue than a question of where the block should be.
Click to expand
Can you expand on that please?
Yes, I am new to sailing, and if it's a me issue, then by all means put me straight
 
Indysailor

Indysailor

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Oct 10, 2009
1,100
Catalina 27 3657 Lake Monroe
dfrancis23 said:
Can you expand on that please? Yes, I am new to sailing, and if it's a me issue, then by all means put me straight
Click to expand
If you don't have tell tales on your sails, I would recommend them. They are a great indicator of whether you have them trimmed correctly. Generally, if you have your sails all the way in, that is as close to the centerline of the boat as possible, you will point the boat as close to the wind as you can, without having the sails luff up. Tell tales are nice because they give you an accurate indication of how the wind is flowing over both sides of the sail. Without them, you have to pay close attention to the luff of the sail to gauge whether it's trimmed correctly. Unfortunately, watching the luff doesn't always tell you when the sails are over trimmed or whether you should be pointing higher. I say you might not have been pointing high enough because it just seems kind of extreme to be close hauled and heeling at 35 degrees in a 15mph breeze. Now, this is a guess- I have no idea what condition your sails are in, which also affects heeling, but on my 23 I would probably have been heeling at 20 degrees or less. As you are new to sailing, it would make sense since it's a common problem to be over trimmed. An old saying with the sheets is "when in doubt, let it out". I recommend trying that- let the sheet way out, then bring it in until the sail luffs and then let it out just to the point that it becomes full. It wouldn't surprise me if you find that you end up with the sails further out than you had guessed they should be in the first place. It certainly was the case when I started sailing.

Another way to look at it is to remember that the sails need to cut the wind in half in order to work correctly. Wind needs to flow smoothly over both sides and when they are over trimmed, then too much wind is hitting the windward side of the sail, so that there is little lift, which pushes the sail sideways.
 
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