Oil for older small diesel

Richard19068

Richard19068

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Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Hi,

Universal M-18 14 horse diesel. 35 years old. No hour meter first 15 years or so. Estimate maybe 4,000 hours.

I have been using Delo 400 LE 15/40 which now seems unavailable. The replacement Delo product is 400 SDE which I see has reduced phosphorous (from .12% to .076%) and zinc (from .13% to .08%).

From the little I know about older diesels this may not be a good thing. Do any of you diesel gurus have an opinion if this an issue with my small engine?

Thanks
 
sail sfbay

sail sfbay

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Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
I am sure there will be plenty of opinions on the subject. I have always used Chevron Delo 400 SDE 15W40 CK-4 in all my yanmar engines as old as 34 years old.
 
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odaydokay

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Jul 5, 2011
702
Oday 28 Madison, CT
I always thought single weight was recommended (I have a Universal M12), so I go with Delo 30W, but as sail sf said you will be getting a lot of opinions. Probably changing it regularly and not over (or under of course!) filling are more critical than the alternatives you will hear about.
 
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odaydokay

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Jul 5, 2011
702
Oday 28 Madison, CT
odaydokay said:
I always thought single weight was recommended (I have a Universal M12), so I go with Delo 30W, but as sail sf said you will be getting a lot of opinions. Probably changing it regularly and not over (or under of course!) filling are more critical than the alternatives you will hear about.
Click to expand
I just looked up the service manual for my Universal M12. States 30W CD or 10W40. States same for the M25. Also states for both: Caution. Fill only to full mark on dipstick.
 
sail sfbay

sail sfbay

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Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
I would add..............follow you engine manual on the recommended oil viscosity, which is what I do.
 
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Capt jgw

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Feb 8, 2014
1,300
Columbia 36 Muskegon
I use Shell Rotella 10W40 on the commercial boats I run and my own Universal M25. It's recommended by
Detroit Diesel.
 
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Richard19068

Richard19068

.
Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
sail sfbay said:
I have always used Chevron Delo 400 SDE 15W40 CK-4 in all my yanmar engines as old as 34 years old.
Click to expand
Thanks

It looks like SDE wasn't available until about 2017 when it replaced the LE. The SDE has much lower zinc content. Thus my question.
 
Richard19068

Richard19068

.
Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
odaydokay said:
I always thought single weight was recommended (I have a Universal M12), so I go with Delo 30W, but as sail sf said you will be getting a lot of opinions. Probably changing it regularly and not over (or under of course!) filling are more critical than the alternatives you will hear about.
Click to expand
Thanks

The question is not about viscosity, it is about phosphorous and zinc content (mostly zinc).
It looks like the Rotella may still have more zinc so I'll have to check that out.
 
sail sfbay

sail sfbay

.
Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
Got it!!..........you are looking for an oil that has high zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) content, which is the most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils. They work together to provide anti-wear protection and minimize lubricant breakdown. Zinc prevents metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Phosphorus helps to perform the anti-wear function in the motor oil. From what research I found Rotella and Delo ZDDP content are similar referring to the autorestomod thread and article from widman entitled "Do Older Engines Need Oil with ZDDP Additives?" pages 27 and 28 comparing Rotella and Delo phosphorus content. Hope that helps.

www.autorestomod.com

Oil ZDDP List

Please note that the information here came from the http://www.sccoa.com forums ad was compiled in 2015 and reposted from a now dead site by 20psiofevil. SO, that said, do your OWN research. Data...
www.autorestomod.com
 
sail sfbay

sail sfbay

.
Feb 21, 2013
4,638
Hunter 46 Point Richmond, CA
Interesting thread!!............More information to consider.......look at the API oil specifications in the link below, in particular CK-4. Attached are the specification sheets for Delo 400 SDE and Rotella T4 for your information. Both have the CK-4 service category.

API Engine Oil Lubricant Specifications - oilspecifications.org

www.oilspecifications.org www.oilspecifications.org

API Service Category CK-4 describes oils for use in high-speed four-stroke cycle diesel engines designed to meet 2017 model year on-highway and Tier 4 non-road exhaust emission standards as well as for previous model year diesel engines. These oils are formulated for use in all applications with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 500 ppm (0.05% by weight). However, the use of these oils with greater than 15 ppm (0.0015% by weight) sulfur fuel may impact exhaust aftertreatment system durability and/or oil drain interval. These oils are especially effective at sustaining emission control system durability where particulate filters and other advanced aftertreatment systems are used. API CK-4 oils are designed to provide enhanced protection against oil oxidation, viscosity loss due to shear, and oil aeration as well as protection against catalyst poisoning, particulate filter blocking, engine wear, piston deposits, degradation of low- and high-temperature properties, and soot-related viscosity increase. API CK-4 oils exceed the performance criteria of API CJ-4, CI-4 with CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, and CH-4 and can effectively lubricate engines calling for those API Service Categories.
 

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Richard19068

Richard19068

.
Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
sail sfbay said:
Got it!!..........you are looking for an oil that has high zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) content, which is the most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils. They work together to provide anti-wear protection and minimize lubricant breakdown. Zinc prevents metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Phosphorus helps to perform the anti-wear function in the motor oil. From what research I found Rotella and Delo ZDDP content are similar referring to the autorestomod thread and article from widman entitled "Do Older Engines Need Oil with ZDDP Additives?" pages 27 and 28 comparing Rotella and Delo phosphorus content. Hope that helps.

www.autorestomod.com

Oil ZDDP List

Please note that the information here came from the http://www.sccoa.com forums ad was compiled in 2015 and reposted from a now dead site by 20psiofevil. SO, that said, do your OWN research. Data...
www.autorestomod.com
Click to expand
Interesting article thanks for sharing.

Note the oil ZDDP list is old. It lists Delo 400 LE which I can't find. The new equivalent Delo is the 400 SDE which has substantially less zinc and phosphorous.
It shows the "new" Rotella with the old amounts of zinc and phosphorous. That may be good but I can't find that anywhere in Shell's information.

I have seen the data sheets in your second post. The Delo info shows the reduced zinc and phosphorous levels. The Rotella sheet does not include that data and I can't find anywhere that shows what it is.

Thanks again for the response. I appreciate the time.
 
Charles Erwin

Charles Erwin

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Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
To the Original question:

You - and others who have commented - seem to fear lack of zinc additives.

Please tell us how lower zinc content matters at this stage of motor life? How exactly does the "new formula" oil adversely effect main or rod bearing wear? Cam lobe wear? Lifter wear? Or any other component wear? Or is it some other component that you reckon might suffer damage? If so then which ones?

If you are willing to tell us what components you think are threatened then are you willing to provide the source of the information you rely on for these conclusions?

Charles



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SycloneDriver

SycloneDriver

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Jul 23, 2009
857
Beneteau 31 Oceanis Grand Lake, Oklahoma
I think the zinc protects the cam followers.

Check out Lucas Magnum for older diesels.
 
Charles Erwin

Charles Erwin

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Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Agree.

Additives - like Comp Cams break-in additive - are critical for initial cam lobe/lifter break - in cases of new (or reground) flat tappet cams. Flat tappet cam break-in needs to be done immediately at first start after new or rebuild camshaft - 20 minutes at @ 2500 rpm.

Then continue additive for maybe 100 hours thereafter. I use it for 200 hours after new or reground cam installation (2 average seasons in my part of the world.)

Apart from cam/lifter and rocker/valve joints the other components of the motor don't benefit much from higher zinc levels. I cannot find any data that additives are of benefit in late engine life and I have looked. But an additive won't hurt either.

The central point is that plain vanilla latest diesel oil formulations are very effective provided you make your oil changes annually or at about 100 hours.

Charles
 
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Meriachee

Meriachee

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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
I use Rotella in my trucks and the little Westerbeke. It runs a whole lot better, smoother with this lube, and quieter. Will it last longer? Who knows.
 
Richard19068

Richard19068

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Jun 11, 2004
1,633
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Charles,
Thanks for your comments. Do I have a problem? Should I look for an alternative oil, or an additive? That is what I am trying to figure out. I only "fear" what I don't know. My experience is limited to my one diesel engine.I don't know a flat tappet valve from any other. It is confusing to me so I am trying to figure it out with input from some people here, like you, who might be familiar with needs for my old engine. You are suggesting I don't have to worry about the newer oils having lower zinc. I appreciate that opinion and guidance.

PS: I'm old enough to remember when lead was phased out of gasoline in the early 70's and the resultant worry about valve / valve seat wear in pre 1970 engines. So maybe I'm just projecting that question onto this one.
 
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