What's your opinion of the oil section device? The one where you would stick a small tube down the dipstick opening and suck oil out that way. What I am really asking is, do you feel like you get a good oil change that way? I am thinking that they may not pick up the sludge and tiny bits of stuff at the bottom of the oil pan. I know it's better than not changing the oil at all, but, what are your thoughts? Thanks, Jack PS. I do have the rubber oil change tube at the bottom of the pan but have misplaced the connections.
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Avoid sludge
One can avoid the sludge problem by keeping up on oil changes. I have found theTempo suction device to work great. On a boat, unless you have an oil plug installed at the back end of your pan and can get to it, you can't get it all. I do the best I can and when I need to rebuild my diesel, then that is what I will do. Not the end of the world. I do my prescribed oil changes, change filters, and check levels frequently (coolant too). I feel this is the best I can do.
One can avoid the sludge problem by keeping up on oil changes. I have found theTempo suction device to work great. On a boat, unless you have an oil plug installed at the back end of your pan and can get to it, you can't get it all. I do the best I can and when I need to rebuild my diesel, then that is what I will do. Not the end of the world. I do my prescribed oil changes, change filters, and check levels frequently (coolant too). I feel this is the best I can do.
Suction
I use a suction type oil changer. Everything is relative. You can remove the drain plug. There will still be residue in the drain pan when the flow has stopped. When I run my engine after changing the oil, with the suction device, the oil on the dip stick is clean. I look at it this way. My engine gets a very limited amount of use. Changing the oil / filter once per season using the suction type changer is plenty good enough. Don't know if it's true, but I heard Mercedes changes oil in their cars with a suction device. Oh . . . . I make sure that the oil is warmed up before changing. Good Luck
I use a suction type oil changer. Everything is relative. You can remove the drain plug. There will still be residue in the drain pan when the flow has stopped. When I run my engine after changing the oil, with the suction device, the oil on the dip stick is clean. I look at it this way. My engine gets a very limited amount of use. Changing the oil / filter once per season using the suction type changer is plenty good enough. Don't know if it's true, but I heard Mercedes changes oil in their cars with a suction device. Oh . . . . I make sure that the oil is warmed up before changing. Good Luck
Oil Change Suction Device
I have been using a TopSider oil sction device for many years on my boat and on my Mercedes Benz SLK (oil filter mounted on top of engine). All of the Mercedes Benz dealers use a powered suction device for oil changes and what with they charge, if they are satisfied with the results so am I. Higgs is right on, prevention of sludge is a matter of keeping up on oil changes.
I have been using a TopSider oil sction device for many years on my boat and on my Mercedes Benz SLK (oil filter mounted on top of engine). All of the Mercedes Benz dealers use a powered suction device for oil changes and what with they charge, if they are satisfied with the results so am I. Higgs is right on, prevention of sludge is a matter of keeping up on oil changes.
Flush with some clean oil.
Jack: If you feel that the pan may have sludge, consider filling the engine with fresh oil after it has been drained. Run the engine for a few minutes and pump this oil out too. Then refill to factory specs and you should have about as clean an engine as you are going to get.
Jack: If you feel that the pan may have sludge, consider filling the engine with fresh oil after it has been drained. Run the engine for a few minutes and pump this oil out too. Then refill to factory specs and you should have about as clean an engine as you are going to get.
Suck it
Jack, I use a pump as well and I second Steves recommendation that you pump out, then add clean oil then warm it up and remove that as well. There was a recent post about someone who said the plastic tube came out of the dipstick hole 6 inches shorter than it went in becuase of the engine being heated to thin the old oil. He said it melted off and stayed in the engine! Another poster sagely advised that one should insert a metal tube section into the end of plastic tune and insert the metal tune into the dipstick hole. I think that is a good idea if only because the end of the plastic hose tends to curl up and does not draw from the lowest part of crankcase. Regards.
Jack, I use a pump as well and I second Steves recommendation that you pump out, then add clean oil then warm it up and remove that as well. There was a recent post about someone who said the plastic tube came out of the dipstick hole 6 inches shorter than it went in becuase of the engine being heated to thin the old oil. He said it melted off and stayed in the engine! Another poster sagely advised that one should insert a metal tube section into the end of plastic tune and insert the metal tune into the dipstick hole. I think that is a good idea if only because the end of the plastic hose tends to curl up and does not draw from the lowest part of crankcase. Regards.
I use the hand drill
I use the little pump made by Tempo, you commonly see them at any West Marine. It's a small pump that fits on the end of a power drill. Note; you have to use an electric power drill not a cordless. The cordless doen't have enough RPM. They work very well, IMO much better than the hand suction pumps and a lot easier. Usually when I'm finished pumping all the oil out (less than 5 minutes) I actually see smoke or fumes coming from the bottom of the crankcase which means I pretty much got it all out. It cost about $20 and is well worth the money. I have also used this pump to drain my fuel tank, 20 gal in about 5 minutes.
I use the little pump made by Tempo, you commonly see them at any West Marine. It's a small pump that fits on the end of a power drill. Note; you have to use an electric power drill not a cordless. The cordless doen't have enough RPM. They work very well, IMO much better than the hand suction pumps and a lot easier. Usually when I'm finished pumping all the oil out (less than 5 minutes) I actually see smoke or fumes coming from the bottom of the crankcase which means I pretty much got it all out. It cost about $20 and is well worth the money. I have also used this pump to drain my fuel tank, 20 gal in about 5 minutes.
Drain plug method
After the first oil change I removed the oil pan, drilled and tapped a drain plug in. Took less than an hour total time. Since then oil changes have been a snap. Sure the pump out method works but if there's an easier way I'm for taking it.
After the first oil change I removed the oil pan, drilled and tapped a drain plug in. Took less than an hour total time. Since then oil changes have been a snap. Sure the pump out method works but if there's an easier way I'm for taking it.
Yanmar drain plug
I have a Sieman's engine manual and they that Yanmar says not to drain oil from the pan plug. Don't know why. The tempo pump I use is not the one for the drill. It is a canister which has a handle on the top that one pumps a half a dozen times to creat a vaccum. Stick the hose in the engine, pump 6 times and walk away and do something else for a while and it sucks out the oil. It is really great. No pumping and no mess. Re the guy who melted his hose: Unless the engine was really, really hot, one would think that should not be a problem with oil change setups on the market. Finding hoses that can stand up to the temp should not be all that tough considering how many seals on the engine are rubber and have to hold up to those temps. I wonder if the hose in question came from a product specifically for oil changes.
I have a Sieman's engine manual and they that Yanmar says not to drain oil from the pan plug. Don't know why. The tempo pump I use is not the one for the drill. It is a canister which has a handle on the top that one pumps a half a dozen times to creat a vaccum. Stick the hose in the engine, pump 6 times and walk away and do something else for a while and it sucks out the oil. It is really great. No pumping and no mess. Re the guy who melted his hose: Unless the engine was really, really hot, one would think that should not be a problem with oil change setups on the market. Finding hoses that can stand up to the temp should not be all that tough considering how many seals on the engine are rubber and have to hold up to those temps. I wonder if the hose in question came from a product specifically for oil changes.
I'm the sage...
...who recommended the brass tube in lieu of the plastic coil. Jack is exactly right that the thing flops around inside, sucking as much air as oil. Just take whatever device you're using to the hardware store and buy short lengths of clear plastic tubing to form the telescoped parts to fit the tube. I get 1600 cc from my 18 Yanmar, roughly 2/3, which is as good as it gets. And by all means, do it when the oil is warm/hot.
...who recommended the brass tube in lieu of the plastic coil. Jack is exactly right that the thing flops around inside, sucking as much air as oil. Just take whatever device you're using to the hardware store and buy short lengths of clear plastic tubing to form the telescoped parts to fit the tube. I get 1600 cc from my 18 Yanmar, roughly 2/3, which is as good as it gets. And by all means, do it when the oil is warm/hot.
Opinion of the subject device ?
That it's a total pain. There are expensive ones, with brass pumps etc, and cheaper all-plastic ones, but they're all not very effective ( leaving too much oil etc in the sump) time consuming and, on my boat anyway, you have to be a contortionist to use the bloody thing. A patient contortionist, as it seemed to take forever to suck any quantitity of oil thru the tiny little plastic tube, even with the oil warmed up. After a couple of sessions with that infernal device, I modified the tube on the engine and used a piece of oil & temp. resistant rubber hose to give me a gravity drain at a convenient location. Used some brass fittings on the free end of the hose and the whole job cost under $20 : gravity does the work and I can drain the oil hot, which wasn't possible with the cursed plastic suction gizmo. The "rubber" hose was intended for hydraulic system use & has a liner that won't rot & drop off: it also is impervious to engine vibration which could cause the failure of a 'hard' system.
That it's a total pain. There are expensive ones, with brass pumps etc, and cheaper all-plastic ones, but they're all not very effective ( leaving too much oil etc in the sump) time consuming and, on my boat anyway, you have to be a contortionist to use the bloody thing. A patient contortionist, as it seemed to take forever to suck any quantitity of oil thru the tiny little plastic tube, even with the oil warmed up. After a couple of sessions with that infernal device, I modified the tube on the engine and used a piece of oil & temp. resistant rubber hose to give me a gravity drain at a convenient location. Used some brass fittings on the free end of the hose and the whole job cost under $20 : gravity does the work and I can drain the oil hot, which wasn't possible with the cursed plastic suction gizmo. The "rubber" hose was intended for hydraulic system use & has a liner that won't rot & drop off: it also is impervious to engine vibration which could cause the failure of a 'hard' system.
Suction
I have a suction pump and I find it great. Warm engine, insert plastic tube and give it a couple of pumps. It does all the work after that. It has an anti overflow device in it to stop overfilling. I don't think draining the oil out of the sump plug will get all the sludge either. It will be stuck to the sump pan. If you use good quality oil there should not be sludge in there anyway. I used the suction pump to suck water out of hard to get to places too.
I have a suction pump and I find it great. Warm engine, insert plastic tube and give it a couple of pumps. It does all the work after that. It has an anti overflow device in it to stop overfilling. I don't think draining the oil out of the sump plug will get all the sludge either. It will be stuck to the sump pan. If you use good quality oil there should not be sludge in there anyway. I used the suction pump to suck water out of hard to get to places too.
Yanmar says to use a pump
Higgs, I have a Yanmar and the manual clearly says to use a pump out through the dip stick. I spoke with the Yanmar dealer/service rep and he said that the oil pan is aluminum and is not designed to have the plug removed and inserted repeatedly - the threads would eventually become damaged. Since this was all by design, I assume that Yanmar designed the dip stick tube with this in mind and that it allows easy access to a low point in the pan. In my case, it would be a royal pain, if possible at all, to access a plug at the bottom and "neatly" empty the oil.
Higgs, I have a Yanmar and the manual clearly says to use a pump out through the dip stick. I spoke with the Yanmar dealer/service rep and he said that the oil pan is aluminum and is not designed to have the plug removed and inserted repeatedly - the threads would eventually become damaged. Since this was all by design, I assume that Yanmar designed the dip stick tube with this in mind and that it allows easy access to a low point in the pan. In my case, it would be a royal pain, if possible at all, to access a plug at the bottom and "neatly" empty the oil.
My Yanmar has no plug.
It's a 3GM30F. For years I used a Ross Oil Changer but it wore out and they are out of business. Now I vacuum pump but my West Marine pump started spitting oil out of the plunger. What a mess. What else? Oh, sludge. Anybody ever find sludge anywhere in a diesel engine? After 15 years and over 4000 hours, mine was as clean as the day it was new. That includes the pan. I've heard that diesel engines are clean because of the fuel. But I have limited references.
It's a 3GM30F. For years I used a Ross Oil Changer but it wore out and they are out of business. Now I vacuum pump but my West Marine pump started spitting oil out of the plunger. What a mess. What else? Oh, sludge. Anybody ever find sludge anywhere in a diesel engine? After 15 years and over 4000 hours, mine was as clean as the day it was new. That includes the pan. I've heard that diesel engines are clean because of the fuel. But I have limited references.
Let's clear up....
...one old sailors tale right now. It may be that the Yanmar manual says not to use a drain plug. I have yet to hear a viable reason why. The idea that an aluminum pan can strip is of course possible. This is dependent on the animal tightening it. Vast numbers of automobiles have aluminum oil pans. They all seem to survive many multiple uses without failure. Sludge: Diesel engines produce little or no sludge. Routine maintenance with a quality oil is all that is needed. As for removing ALL the oil, no pump can ever do as good a job as the drain plug. If and when an explanation is ever produced to explain why a drain plug should not be used, I am more than willing to listen. Till then I will use the easier, faster and least messy way of changing oil........with a drain plug. You do whichever pleases you.
...one old sailors tale right now. It may be that the Yanmar manual says not to use a drain plug. I have yet to hear a viable reason why. The idea that an aluminum pan can strip is of course possible. This is dependent on the animal tightening it. Vast numbers of automobiles have aluminum oil pans. They all seem to survive many multiple uses without failure. Sludge: Diesel engines produce little or no sludge. Routine maintenance with a quality oil is all that is needed. As for removing ALL the oil, no pump can ever do as good a job as the drain plug. If and when an explanation is ever produced to explain why a drain plug should not be used, I am more than willing to listen. Till then I will use the easier, faster and least messy way of changing oil........with a drain plug. You do whichever pleases you.
Drain plugs & aluminum sumps
Alan - Don't forget that the automotive sumps you refer to are reinforced at the point where they're tapped for a drain plug. If someone were to just drill & tap an oil pan there would be very little thickness of material to cut thread into, and the liklihood of stripping is probably pretty high. Anyone considering adding a drain plug should also plan on beefing up the pan at that point. A steel pan would be very simple, but a cast aluminum one may not be amenable to welding : I'd want to talk with an experienced aluminum welder before hand. The reason that drain plugs are not found more often probably has to do with the fact that the engine mfg. has no control over where & how the engine is installed, and many boats probably just do not have enough vertical clearance to allow good access under the engine for a drain, so the mfg. puts a drain tube somewhere on the side where there is universal access ( to a degree). Diesel lube oils contain a much higher amt. of detergent etc that minimize sludge formation: there are still combustion by-products etc that settle out of the oil and for that reason, I think that a drain plug at the bottom of the sump & 'hot' oil changes are to be preferred.
Alan - Don't forget that the automotive sumps you refer to are reinforced at the point where they're tapped for a drain plug. If someone were to just drill & tap an oil pan there would be very little thickness of material to cut thread into, and the liklihood of stripping is probably pretty high. Anyone considering adding a drain plug should also plan on beefing up the pan at that point. A steel pan would be very simple, but a cast aluminum one may not be amenable to welding : I'd want to talk with an experienced aluminum welder before hand. The reason that drain plugs are not found more often probably has to do with the fact that the engine mfg. has no control over where & how the engine is installed, and many boats probably just do not have enough vertical clearance to allow good access under the engine for a drain, so the mfg. puts a drain tube somewhere on the side where there is universal access ( to a degree). Diesel lube oils contain a much higher amt. of detergent etc that minimize sludge formation: there are still combustion by-products etc that settle out of the oil and for that reason, I think that a drain plug at the bottom of the sump & 'hot' oil changes are to be preferred.
Drain Plug
TT, all valid points. To get around the wall thickness issue I installed a petcock instead of the usual drain plug. A petcock requires no tools and does not need to be removed to allow oil flow. The petcock I installed looks just like a miniature seacock. A simple 90 degree turn of the lever and the valve is on or off. By choosing a location at the back of the sump at its lowest point, all the oil can be drained from the engine. I even ground off the protrusion of the petcock inside the pan to allow complete drainage.
TT, all valid points. To get around the wall thickness issue I installed a petcock instead of the usual drain plug. A petcock requires no tools and does not need to be removed to allow oil flow. The petcock I installed looks just like a miniature seacock. A simple 90 degree turn of the lever and the valve is on or off. By choosing a location at the back of the sump at its lowest point, all the oil can be drained from the engine. I even ground off the protrusion of the petcock inside the pan to allow complete drainage.
Worth every penny!
Jack- Drain plugs and petcocks are against USCG regulations and ABYC standards, or so I've been told. Apparently you won't pass an insurance survey either for that reason, if the surveyor bothers to look in the dark smelly places. The logic is that if you have a drain plug or petcock, it MIGHT leak, and some of them WILL leak, causing engine failure and an oil spill, neither of which is a good idea. So they make you do it the hard way, sucking it out from the top. And after years of messing around with all the other alternatives, I can only say the suction pump-can-thing is WAY BETTER THAN SLICED BREAD, Kleenex, Scotch Tape, Duct Tape, or Velcro. Right up there on the top of the list.<G> It takes a few minutes to get started, even with warm oil, but then it just keeps on sucking. Some paper towels and a plastic bag (and extra hands) to wipe up any stray oil from the tube as you pull it out, help. I still like the idea of a simple drain best, with a safety wire or other "can't fail" security lock on it. But I also don't like having obvious code violations around.
Jack- Drain plugs and petcocks are against USCG regulations and ABYC standards, or so I've been told. Apparently you won't pass an insurance survey either for that reason, if the surveyor bothers to look in the dark smelly places. The logic is that if you have a drain plug or petcock, it MIGHT leak, and some of them WILL leak, causing engine failure and an oil spill, neither of which is a good idea. So they make you do it the hard way, sucking it out from the top. And after years of messing around with all the other alternatives, I can only say the suction pump-can-thing is WAY BETTER THAN SLICED BREAD, Kleenex, Scotch Tape, Duct Tape, or Velcro. Right up there on the top of the list.<G> It takes a few minutes to get started, even with warm oil, but then it just keeps on sucking. Some paper towels and a plastic bag (and extra hands) to wipe up any stray oil from the tube as you pull it out, help. I still like the idea of a simple drain best, with a safety wire or other "can't fail" security lock on it. But I also don't like having obvious code violations around.
Drain plugs are against USCG & ABYC standards?
WHAT? Who told you that? Every Yanmar or Westerbeke or Universal I ever saw had a drain plug. Many of them even have a hose extended out of the oil pan for extracting oil when needed.
WHAT? Who told you that? Every Yanmar or Westerbeke or Universal I ever saw had a drain plug. Many of them even have a hose extended out of the oil pan for extracting oil when needed.
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