O'Day 25 sailing in gusty winds question

[mihaso]

Hi guys,
This is a newbie question, but I've been sailing my new (to me) O'Day 25 for almost 2 years now, and I'm still not very comfortable matching sails and winds in my area.
I have a hank-on genoa 150 and jib, and a mainsail with one reef.
I try to sail in 7-15 knots of wind, but being in a gusty area, I can get often a sudden 20-30 knot blow.
What's a good combination for this type of wind?
I seem to always use the jib, and if it gets too gusty I reef the main and ease the main sheet if it blows too much.
I only use the genoa if there's 5 knots and below.
I think I'm being too conservative, but being an old boat (1975) I am not sure what it can take and don't want to break it.
Also, is it worth purchasing a storm jib? What winds would you use it for?

Thanks,

P.S. This is lake sailing, water state in these winds is generally choppy. Also, having to deal with a pesky day job, my sailing is limited to weekends, for a short Canadian summer. I have to take what weather I get

 

[Stu Jackson]

Your jib is way too big. You don't need a storm jib, you need a working jib, 110%, or max say 120%. A single reef should be fine.

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

I sailed a Catalina 25 on SF Bay for 13 years, with a 110 and an 85 jib, used the first of two reef points sometimes.

You need to try to stop "matching" and go sail and learn to reef on the go. Saves a lot of useless planning, 'cuz even forecasts are wrong. Or start with a reef and then shake it out, but usually winds build during the day, don't they?

 

[JRT]

I'm still learning but had similar issues last year (first year with our O'day 25). I did several things this year. First new jib and mainsail, the old ones were blown out and caused a lot of issues. The next thing was a 3 weekend sailing class for myself and daughter. While I had the basics down getting time with an instructor was money well spent.

I can see that 30 gusts would be a pretty sport event. We can handle 15-20 but really not what we like. I really need to make 2 upgrades to our 25 with an adjustable mainsheet and jib travlers. Have to decide first if we should invest more money in our 1976 or move up

 

[mihaso]

Thanks for your replies. I think my jib is 110, (not entirely sure, definitely greater than 100), but even with that I feel overpowered sometimes. My main is a little baggy but I don't think it's a big issue yet.
I haven't been knocked down yet, but I did have the boat round up at times, in big gusts.
An 85 sounds tempting if I can find one.

 

[Joe]

My experience on lakes with gusty winds is to never cleat the main! This is sailing on a very light Nacra 5.2 (17 ft.) with a huge fully battened main... the jib is incidental. Stu's comment about SF bay is appropriate to your situation. I also sailed there, back in the 70's, mostly in a Santana 22 or Cal 29... both masthead rigs and very popular on the bay back then. Large headsail with smallish main was the popular set up... but as years go by.. you see more full roach mains and working jibs on these type boats now.

So.. keep using the smaller headsail, 110 is perfect... flat cut is assumed... and use your main to handle the gusts (I think you're already doing that) but...take a good look at the condition of your sails.. if the are worn and stretched out... you will have a heck of a time keeping the boat upright in a gust... a new mainsail with a couple full battens up top and two partials lower down... all the controls working as they should, That would be outhaul, backstay, Cunningham, traveler and mainsheet... and you should be as ready as anyone on the lake.
If you don't have an adjustable traveler car... I think the OEM was a pin stop slider... that can be a very cool upgrade for moderate outlay... say $250 for car, control blocks and line. More if you get Harken cause they require proprietary track.

Finally, your comment about "moving up" rather than spend money on an upgrade doesn't seem logical to me... it won't solve the problem at hand and everything will just cost more.

 

[mihaso]

Thank you, No, I'm not moving up yet.
I do have a pin stop slider, which I should use more often.
I can live with it for now. I do need a better reefing system first. And starting to consider newer sails... sometime soon.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I do have a pin stop slider, which I should use more often.
I can live with it for now. I do need a better reefing system first.

I think you have this completely backwards. If it was my boat, I'd do 'em in this order:

1 -- get a good usable adjustable traveler; it can make old sails continue to work, I did for decades (and still do) Garhauer is the best value over everything else. Pin sliders are dangerous to your fingers! Beware. Most folks avoid the adjustment and pin them centerline, which helps your deal but is still wrong from a sailing pov.
2 -- analyze your reefing system carefully, and either learn to use it or identify the OPTIONS you have before you spend a penny. Rare is even the most basic of production boats NOT equipped with a workable, perhaps albeit clumsy, slab reefing system: clew line on the boom, tack hook is "THE" basics. And most of us learned to use them "on the run" because that was all there was. Since then there are lines led aft and the superior double line reefing for larger boats, still useful for smaller ones if you want to spend the $$$.
3 -- Wait for new sails until you know what to look for, gives you time for research and options analysis.

Good luck, use the heck out of that boat, it's really nice. I sailed one in Victoria Harbour back before they discontinued the ability to do so. Lovely day.

 

[shemandr]

You may not consider your main sail blown out but I bet it is. Everything gets worse with a baggy main when there is a gust. The sail converts from power forward to heel and drag sideways. With a well shaped main, and jib, the boat will heel in a gust and then accelerate and recover from the heel. It is a beautiful thing to feel and an absolute pleasure. There are many reasons folks go out on sailboats - any of which are valid. But if you want to enjoy sailing - the physical interaction of wind, sail and water - you need decent sails. You need to decide if you want to upgrade sails for this boat or move on.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I think you're doing some of the right things already and the advice above is good. Gusts approaching 30 will be exciting with any practical sail configuration. As you get more experience you'll learn what the gusts look like on the water before they hit you, and how to time your preparations (mainly easing the mainsheet and feathering up).

 

[JRT]

I'd stick with the 110 jib and get a new main as others have said. If those are the original sails they are worn out.

 

[mihaso]

I do understand the need for a better traveler, but being a small boat, I can move it by hand for now.
Sadly my reefing system consists of a small cleat about 2 feet from the boom aft. The reefing line goes through a small wheel towards the cleat.
Which means, if I reef on a run, I have to lean slightly outside the boat, and pull hard on the line, usually in choppy conditions, trying not to fall out. It might be fun, but definitely not safe, and I usually end up with a crappy reef. At the very least I need to move the cleat towards the boom forward, so I can do it safely from near the mast.

Regarding the sails, I'll try to post a quick video, I'd really like an opinion on their state.

Thank you

 

[Ward H]

@mihaso
I had an O'day 25 for 5 seasons. It came with a 135 and 110 jib. I tried the 135 but found I was always reefing it so I stayed with the 110. I also used the pin stop traveler. It was the last upgrade I made to the boat.
I had a furling system and one reef point in the main. Original sails. I would reef the main at 12 and start bringing in the jib at 15. If I needed to sail and the winds were above 20 I would usually go with the reefed main only. Not as much speed and power but with that wind I was OK. Sometimes I would reef the jib down to about 70% and keep the main covered. I sailed in up to 23 knots but no higher. I always set the sails for the maximum gusts as rounding up in the O'day could be violent if you didn't see it coming.
If the forecast showed 20 or higher I wouldn't consider going out.

We were always day sailing so if the wind was so light I couldn't keep moving at 2-3 I would call it a day and motor so I never missed the 135 genny.

I would make a good reefing system for the main sail a priority. Then a good outhaul to flatten the main.
New sails, jib car track (at time of new jib so it can be designed for the new track), traveler and furling system for the jib is the order I would do my upgrades.

 

[hejira17]

Try sailing with the jib alone, no main. It can be a lot of fun. These boats sail well on the genoa alone. You won't head up as well, but you won't heel over either, you'll have good control of the boat.

Also suggest get a second set of reef points put in the main. With 2 reefs on the main it will help you and not be overpowered with wind gusts. And maybe get the jib cut to 140%.

 

[Brian S]

I do understand the need for a better traveler, but being a small boat, I can move it by hand for now.
Sadly my reefing system consists of a small cleat about 2 feet from the boom aft. The reefing line goes through a small wheel towards the cleat.
Which means, if I reef on a run, I have to lean slightly outside the boat, and pull hard on the line, usually in choppy conditions, trying not to fall out. It might be fun, but definitely not safe, and I usually end up with a crappy reef. At the very least I need to move the cleat towards the boom forward, so I can do it safely from near the mast.

Regarding the sails, I'll try to post a quick video, I'd really like an opinion on their state.

Thank you

It is relatively easy to remove the cleat, move it forward roughly 2/3rds, or 3/4rs forward on the boom, and drill and tap to reinstall. You could also get one or two eye straps to rivet along the boom for fairleads for the leech reefing line. This flat style of eye strap is good, because it can easily be bent to follow the shape of a boom, either round or eliptical cross section.

To reef, I hove-to on starboard tack, go forward and drop the main halyard and attach my forward reef to the gooseneck hook. My main had a welded ring on each side of the sail, connected by webbing through the tack reef grommet, so it is very easy to drop the ring over the gooseneck reef hook. Then I turn around, and the leech reef line and cleat is right there. Pull that on, cleat, and I'm free to release the jib sheet so it's not backwinded from the hove-to, bring tiller to centerline, sheet in the main, and I'm off on starboard tack. 2 minutes max, usually faster.

I have seen the West Wight Potter 19 with the leech reef line cleats 1/4, maybe 1/3 forward along the boom, and that is FAR too close to the end of the boom, and too close to the outside of the cockpit, as you note.

 

[mihaso]

I was not able to post a video of my sails. The weather was pretty unfriendly this weekend, 6-8 kn with 25 kn gusts
I had just enough time to take some pictures of my boom, then torrential rain started, then the wind dropped to 0.

Brian, thanks for your comment, that is very close to what I am thinking.
I have 2 cleats on port side, one for the toping lift, one for the clew line. I have nothing on the starboard side. (Ignore how the lines are tied up in the photo)
One eye strap and a clam cleat should fix my reefing problem. I am happy having all my lines to the mast, it keeps my cockpit clear.

 

[Brian S]

Mihaso, usually for the reefing line, there's an eye strap on one side of the boom, and the cheek block on the other side with the cleat. Reefing line terminates at the eye strap, run up through the reef grommet on the sail, back down to the cheek block, and then forward to the cleat. The eye strap and cheek block should be aft of where the reefing grommet would fall on the boom. This allows the reef point to be pulled down, and back. You can adjust the amount of tension on the line so that you can create some draft in the sail when reefed, to help push through waves, because reefing reduces sail area, and also lowers center of effort, both of which reduce heeling. If you have the foot tight, it can reduce your power, and then the boat won't push through waves as well.

 

[Stu Jackson]

One eye strap and a clam cleat should fix my reefing problem.

The eye strap will.
The clam cleat won't.
Why?
'Cuz when you need it to hold, it simply won't. The clew reef line is under a lot of tension.
Get a real cleat, you'll be glad you did. Same two holes, too.
Good luck, divergent views on this thread have given you a lot to think about, and it sounds like you're on your way.
Have fun.