O'Day 23-1 Mainsheet block on aft stay

[sreidvt]

Hello,

My two O'Day 23s are under tarps and snow right now but on Weds. I was able to bring the running rigging from each boat (pulled earlier this year) into a sailmaker to be checked over. Looks like I can get one decent set by combining the best stays from each boat. Stay lengths are matched (side to side) or close enough to adjust via the turnbuckles

I bought these boats in late fall so I've not yet rigged or sailed them. But I am struck by the fact that the mainsheet blocks for the 1974 (which is the one I'm restoring) attach to an extension of the aft stay (which is single unsplit). It looks like the later 23s also use this arrangement but it is strange. It seems that the backstay tension would change a bit depending on the pull of the main sheet. Does it?

Does the system work OK or have many people swapped to another arrangement. Let me know your experiences please.

Also, I've avoided closed tunrbuckles in the past. Are they OK on these boats? It seems to have been defacto for the 23 in that era.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[HukilauMike]

No one I know is completely happy with that mainsheet attachment. But I don't find that it greatly increases backstay tension; the attachment point is too close to the end of the backstay to have that much affect. The thing I like least about it is that the configuration does not allow for the installation of a traveler.

As for the turnbuckles, I switched to open turnbuckles the first time I swapped out the standing rigging. I don't see the point of closed turnbuckles; the opens are so much easier to adjust.

 

[sreidvt]

Thanks Mike. I'll try it with the stock mainsheet set up and see. But I may switch to something else. Anyone set up an alternate and want to post details/pics?

I think I'm going to look for 8 open turnbuckles. I haven't measured but I think the rig is 5/32 right? Anyone have a good source for these? I just need the 8 collars since the rest of the turnbuckle gear is fine.

Cheers,

 

[svchickadee]

Make sure the threads are the same for the open turnbuckles. I replaced the forestay on my Oday 25 when I installed a CDI furling unit and was told by Rudy at D&R that the screw directions on the open and closed turnbuckles are not the same.

 

[sreidvt]

That's important to know, thank you.

 

[Brian S]

Many O'days are rigged with end boom sheeting, as are the lineup of Precision boats. This allows for more room in the cockpit, and since these are cruising boats and not racing boats, maximizing cockpit space and comfort has a higher priority than sail control. Therefore, there is no provision for a traveller. As a result, the boat should be rigged with an easily adjustable topping lift and at least a 4:1 boom vang, allowing for vang sheeting to control mainsail twist. Or, if you don't want a topping lift, a Boomkicker or rigid vang is needed to hold up the boom in light wind.

I think there is some debate about the adjustability of the backstay. The small triangle plate that holds the backstay together, and allows attachment of the mainsheet, is probably too small to get any reasonable amount of leverage onto the backstay when pressured by the mainsheet. Also, I think if there is any effect, it's mainly when closehauled. There was an article in Small Craft Advisor reviewing the O'day 192, and they point out the triangle plate. In pictures of the reference boat used for the article, the owner had actually rigged a 3:1 purchase that replaces the 18" strop from the chainplate to the mainsheet triangle. This is not unheard of, Catalina Capri 22s use a 6:1 or 8:1 purchase inline with the backstay, and I know of a Beneteau First 235 with the same arrangement. Some would only rig an inline backstay adjuster such as this if there was an additional loose strop as a failover in the event that the purchase were to break. I know that the 192 has swept spreaders, so the rig should stay up even without the backstay. With today's Dyneema/Spectra/Vectran cored lines, I would think that a break is pretty unlikely. I have considered adding a purchase to mine, probably 4:1, but I haven't figured the best way to rig all the blocks... Perhaps this spring I can take a trip to APS and have them help me figure it out.

Still, even with an adjustable backstay, I don't know that it would improve my pointing all that much, considering I can vang sheet, but still have no traveller to get the boom up to the centerline. I have considered a custom built SS square tubing traveller bridge that would go over the tiller across the back of the coaming, but a proper one that looks good would be expensive, and I don't know where I could get it fabricated. And the biggest problem is that it creates more of an obstacle to climbing into the cockpit from the swim ladder. As much as I like to pull strings, I haven't been able to justify any of this. Especially because the boat sails well enough, and she's not going to be raced.

 

[sreidvt]

Hi Brian,

Very interesting…

My Mirage has a mid-cockpit traveller and, while it is great for sail control, guests are often stumbling over it. I agree that end of boom sheeting makes sense for a cruising boat.

I'm not yet sure, however, that fastening the blocks for the mainsheet to the aft stay (which is essentially what happens) is ideal. Again, I haven't yet sailed this boat so I don't know. But I'm curious about options that might fasten those blocks to a reinforced part of the transom (independent of the aft stay). I do suspect that the current arrangement places some tension on the aft stay but maybe it is not an issue.

After you mentioned Precision I did some quick searches and, indeed, the Precision 23 (for example) also brings the mainsheet blocks off the aft stay (apparently with a "Y" bridle below). It's funny, before getting this O'Day, I never noticed that some boats do that.

1986 Precision 23:

Just a hunch but I wonder if the "Y" bridle that the Precision 23 uses tensions the backstay less when close-hauled. I'm imaging the force lines here, for example:

My 1973 O'Day 23 has a large "Y" bridle for the aft stay. I'll have to look to see how that is secured at the transom.

Then again…just saw this post on Sailnet from a Precision 23 owner:

"Keep an eye on the rear backstay bridle where the mainsheet hooks in. The wires at the upper juction of the bridle twist every time you tack and I have had to replace the bridle three times due to wires breaking. Almost lost the backstay in a blow the last time. Now I inspect it closely EVERY TIME we go out."

I've thought about having a traveller made that runs above the tiller but I agree that it might make boarding trickier.

I guess this is the main alternative arrangement:

The system used on the Com-Pac 23 is interesting as well:

Interested in seeing pics. from anyone who has rigged an alternate arrangement for the main sheet blocks on the 23-1 or 23-2.

Cheers,

 

[Brian S]

sreidvt, I see some problems there. First, that one with the mainsheet block mounted to the transom... well, that could potentially adversely affect steering. I'm not keen on that. And I've sailed a Com-Pac 19 with that mainsheet arrangement, and let me tell you it SUCKS. There is far too much friction in that system, especially if the mainsheet is a size too big, and just basic polyester double braid that doesn't run through blocks very well. It might pull the boom slightly up to center, but there isn't much that's going to make a Com-Pac perform better IMO.

As for Precisions, I have not heard of anyone with a broken bridle like that. I do know that some have mounted the mainsheet elsewhere, and extended the bridle up higher so that they can use a backstay adjuster.

Keep in mind with your stock arrangement, the main will pull up on the backstay strop. If there's any significant levering force on the triangle, it would tighten the backstay. When close hauled, and the wind blows stronger, that's what you want - it would tighten the forestay to reduce sag and depower the jib. On a fractional rig, it would also induce a bit of mast bend, which also flattens the main and reduces power.

I think you should do what everyone told me to do, just sail the boat for a season as rigged, and then make decisions about changes you want to make. So far, I've had 2 seasons sailing mine as rigged, and so far, I have decided it's not worth any changes

 

[sreidvt]

Hi Brian,

I wondered about tiller movement with the block mounted to the transom. That might be a problem. I'd have to try it. The picture comes from a sailing center that, I imagine, has had the boat rigged like that for some time.

I sailed a Com-Pac 23 in Barnegat Bay this past fall and found the mainsheet arrangement was fine. I didn't notice any problems with friction (allowing for the fact that it, of course, wouldn't work like a traveller). Of course, we did have a good amount of wind that weekend.

Well, we've heard of one person now with a broken Precision bridle. Maybe his backstay was too loose? Otherwise, I don't know how common the problem is.

Interestingly, the traditional traveller on a Rhodes 22 is a rail supported by either side of a split backstay.

I had the same thought on the O'Day 23 backstay effect: the stronger the wind the tighter the backstay would be pulled. I also had the same thought that this might be a benefit on the O'Day 23 rig (which is masthead, right?). In fact, wouldn't it be interesting if O'Day actually factored in that effect when they moved from the bridle of 1973 to the single backstay of 1974 and later? I say that not knowing if the changes were global to the 23s but I do know that my 1973 has a large bridle.

I do plan to at least start the season with the stock arrangement and see how it does. But it's nearly December and I'm in Vermont so the boat's out under a tarp and snow. The closest I get to sailing right now is making plans for the boat. So I'm thinking through what my alternative mainsheet set up would be if I need to change. Otherwise, the best I can do on warmish days is to do some work in the cabin. All of this sailboat thinking is a nice break from my usual work.

Cheers,

 

[HukilauMike]

At one point, I looked into mounting a traveller on top of the pushpit rail on my '79 Oday 23. If I recall, it was going to be a stock Garhauer traveller set up, but mounted with brackets right on top of the rail. The big issue with the idea was that the push pit mounting on top of the transom was not robust enough for the loads. It's just screwed through with no backing plates. Making it strong enough was going to require some semi-major surgery on the boat (cutting in access holes), as well as the custom fabrication of new backing plates that would fit in the small area of the transom lip. Way too much trouble for me. I installed a boom vang instead. Not quite the same, but close enough for me.

 

[sreidvt]

Hi Mike,

I hadn't looked at the mounting of the pushpit carefully but I wondered how sturdy it was. Certainly not strong enough for a traveller, I agree. Is it screwed through instead of bolted? Guess I'll find out in the spring when I rebed everything on the deck.

If I added a traveller at some point in the future my thought is that I would run brackets down against the transom and bolt through it from the outside (just the way the aft stay chainplate is attached). Maybe two through bolts per side.

Always fun to think about the options. Obviously none of this is urgent or the boats wouldn't have sailed successfully for 40 years.

Cheers,

 

[Golden Road]

I am planning to move the main sheet off the backstay, main reason is I don't like the forces generated on the backstay, and am worried about the sudden loading in a hard jibe. Have a couple of ideas similar to last photo. Will let you know.

 

[sreidvt]

Cool, keep me posted. I'm curious.

 

[Jackdaw]

I'd look at two options:

Move the mainsheet block to a hard point (or a blarney post) on the cockpit floor just in front of the sweep of the tiller. or

Cut a few inches off the tiller, and mount a traveler bar across the cockpit seat JUST aft of the locker.

 

[Indysailor]

At one point, I looked into mounting a traveller on top of the pushpit rail on my '79 Oday 23. If I recall, it was going to be a stock Garhauer traveller set up, but mounted with brackets right on top of the rail. The big issue with the idea was that the push pit mounting on top of the transom was not robust enough for the loads. It's just screwed through with no backing plates. Making it strong enough was going to require some semi-major surgery on the boat (cutting in access holes), as well as the custom fabrication of new backing plates that would fit in the small area of the transom lip. Way too much trouble for me. I installed a boom vang instead. Not quite the same, but close enough for me.

Mike, how is your Vang connected at the base of the mast?

 

[HukilauMike]

Mike, how is your Vang connected at the base of the mast?

I connect the vang to both the boom and the base of the mast with bails. I used self-tapping screws to affix both bails directly to the mast and the boom. There are snap shackles at both ends of the vang that then clamp to the bails.

You can see the bail on the boom on this picture. The bail at the base of the mast is the same size and is attached the same way.