Nylon keel cable??

[gkmoore]

Hi all,

My first post here, but not my last as I have many questions as I refurbish my 1982 Catalina 22 (#11035). Raised the boat off the trailer and dropped the keel to do a bottom job. The keel 'cable' from PO is actually a braided nylon (?) line, appx 3/16" diameter. It obviously has done its job- I used it on 3 sails over the summer after acquiring the boat. He had it attached in an interesting way- a short nylon rope is attached to winch drum, and goes about 1 wrap around and ends in a bowline. He then attached the 'cable' with a bowline and this had a bowline around the shackle attached to the keel eye bolt.

Questions: 1) has anyone ever heard of using nylon; any pros/cons out there. 2) The winch drum clamp for the cable is on the backside of the drum, very hard to access. Any thoughts short of pulling drum off or using a mirror to see my work when I attach a new cable?

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[justsomeguy]

There are some very strong synthetics out there, such as Dyneema, Kevlar, aramids. Does sound like an interesting attachment method, as some of these synthetics don't take a knot all that well. Too slippery.

What color is the line?

 

[gkmoore]

The line is an off-white color, very slippery to the touch.

I had two other questions I forgot to post about this. 1) the 'cable' went over the front of the ball, and I think I've read elsewhere it should go over the aft portion of the ball. Also, how long should the cable be (I may price it locally as opposed to the price at the usual retailer).

 

[justsomeguy]

http://www.tensiontech.com/tools_guides/fibres_guide.html
might help you to determine the type of line you're dealing with. I'm sure others more knowledgeable about your boat will chime in.

In the meantime, search the archives. Good luck!

 

[CloudDiver]

The cable (or line) should go to the aft side of the turning ball. One thing to check is if you have the old style or new style of turning ball... Follow me here, the difference between the two is not the bronze turning ball, it is the position. If the turning ball is close to the top of the bronze volcano tube that is the old style, on newer C22's and if you buy the replacement tube from CD the axle hole is drilled lower locating the ball in the lower 3rd of the tube. This improves the lead angle of the line (cable).
There really is nothing wrong with having a synthetic rope instead of stainless cable as long as strength is equivalent. I think the advantage could be no having any 'cable hum'. But, as you pointed out, synthetic line does not take knots very well and the termination (clamp) on the winch drum could be problematic. Also, the diameter of the line is probably too fat for the groove in turning ball, maybe that is why it was run on the front side of the ball in your hull. I'd be afraid the ball could eventually cut into the line. At the end of the day I think the CD price for the stainless keel cable kit is pretty reasonable when it has a nice swaged fork-eye for connection to the keel eye bolt.

 

[centerline]

for a number of reasons that come quickly to mind, I would change it back to cable.
I cant see any good or arguable reason to have an easily cut or abraded line as the lifting line on a weighted swing keel..

 

[gkmoore]

Thanks for the replies; I have the old style turning ball (at top of 'volcano'). Surprisingly, I did have 'cable hum' once when sailing her this summer. I had never lowered the keel (my son did that) so was surprised to see the line rather than a steel cable. I will likely replace it with the CD cable unless others have a good alternative.

 

[centerline]

Thanks for the replies; Surprisingly, I did have 'cable hum' once when sailing her this summer. .

you will never have the hum with a steel cable either, IF you slack it off... if it has any tension on it, then it will hum.

 

[allen-deckard]

I've thought about it. Never had the guts to try it but "personally" I don't see any reason it shouldn't work.

If it weren't for me wondering about prolonged exposure to salt water I'd have already used it.

Used to use it long ago when rock crawling with my jeep. All the best winches use the synthetic braid. Again only reason I "haven't" switched to it is wondering what prolonged saltwater would do.

If you moor your boat and your leaving your keel down I don't know how much build up of barnacles on it might impede cranking it up.

With that said I think it to cool. Way quieter and smoother cranking up for one and should be less wear on your turning ball. (not that that is expensive.)

I don't know if it looks good and he's had it on there for some time? Well then I guess it works.

I'm sure someone that is very knowledgeable in synthetic winch line will chime in. Most all my knowledge is personal opinion and experience but no real facts and figures. But I also like new tech like when it was considered stupid to have electric windows in your car because it was

 

[centerline]

I've thought about it. I don't see any reason it shouldn't work.

as we all know, the synthetics will NOT stand up to the abrasion that a steel cable will, and there are things in the water that we cant see that causes abrasion... you CAN use yacht braid on the keel winch if you wanted to, because its strong enough, and much cheaper than the spectra or dyneema that is probably on the OP's boat... so why wouldnt one use yacht braid?...
anyone who has actually watched a swing keel being cranked up and down has seen that the line does rub the edge of the hole where the line exits the hull to the keel, as the angle of the keel changes.

there are also sticks/wood floating or partially submerged that can get in the line and foul or abrade it...
(I had a branch get caught in my keel cable on my 21.. I didnt know it was there until I trailered the boat and seen it.... it kept me from getting the keel up all the way, but i didnt know that at the moment.
the trailer winch pulled it on and the weight of the boat broke the branch when I pulled up the ramp.
im not sure how long it was there, but it could have ruined a synthetic line during my sailing/motoring around the lake.)

and when it does decide to fail, a synthetic will almost always do so without warning (other than visual, but what you can see, you dont know) where as a cable will become fuzzy and stranded making faulty operation noticeable in time enough to get it repaired before the line fails completely.

a dropped keep is damaging to the boat, its much, much harder to repair in the water, and if you are done for the weekend and getting ready to load your boat so you can go home, it probably isnt going to happen today...

there are lots of good reasons to use cable, and no good reason the use a synthetic on the swing keel winch...

 

[allen-deckard]

wont argue with ya since it's all hypothetical for me. I will say I don't think there are that many abrasive things in the water. An, abrasive thing now and then but not enough to worry about. How a synthetic winch cable would hold up to constant salt water I don't know but the abrasive part wouldn't be a worry for myself.

I've used synthetic line on the dozer I used to run during mining operations that held up for years against trees, rocks and all sorts of abuse. The keel is only 550 lbs and only half of that is being lifted so around 240lbs lifted by the cable. So that weight is barely a flyspeck.

Again i'm not going to do it the stainless cable works just fine I don't see any advantage nor do I see any cool factor or looks good factor to the switch. But hypothetically I don't see an issue besides exposure for myself.

 

[centerline]

wont argue with ya since it's all hypothetical for me. I will say I don't think there are that many abrasive things in the water. An, abrasive thing now and then but not enough to worry about. How a synthetic winch cable would hold up to constant salt water I don't know but the abrasive part wouldn't be a worry for myself.

I've used synthetic line on the dozer I used to run during mining operations that held up for years against trees, rocks and all sorts of abuse. The keel is only 550 lbs and only half of that is being lifted so around 240lbs lifted by the cable. So that weight is barely a flyspeck.

Again i'm not going to do it the stainless cable works just fine I don't see any advantage nor do I see any cool factor or looks good factor to the switch. But hypothetically I don't see an issue besides exposure for myself.

Where you can see the synthetic line on a daily basis while its being used, it can be acceptable to use in an application where it wouldnt normally be used...
what we can see, and inturn, immediatley adjust our procedure/task/usage at the moment to compensate, is a much different thing than having the line out of sight and hidden where we dont really know whats going on... especially when the result of failure could be sudden and catastrophic.

synthetics absolutely do have a place in hoisting/winching applications, due only to its weight and flexibility vs strength (very few applications use it for the strength capability alone) but to think they will take even 10% as much abraision as steel is setting yourself up for a disappointing event...
and its obvious tou havent observed how the keel cable rubs the thruhull opening as it raises/lowers the keel, so yes, I would agree you really have no basis for argument it THIS thread without being a bit more informed by seeing the system im action...

I would never say that using synthetics in this application hasnt been done, but what I AM saying is there is no good reason thet outweighs the bad reasons for using it on a swing keel raising system.. the chance of premature failure and the subsequent damage that can happen, over the expected reasonable life of a keel cable is too high to make it an acceptable choice.

And anyone can do it however they want to, but some of us can only try to prevent a novice who is trying to learn the right/safe way of doing things, from picking up some bad or experimental infomation from someone who has a "theory"...