Well, I cannot stress enough how important a pre purchase survey is. I have been looking at a Northern 25 for the past week, and had no intention of buying anything without a survey, good thing. Where to start, well the survey in its written form will not be ready for a few days, but I did get a lot of info from the surveyor: both bulkheads need replacing, chain plates need to be resealed, they were leaking at what point, the sails were not inventoried as the surveryor did not feel there would be a point, after looking at one of them. There is a crack in the cabin floor that needs to be reworked. The cockpit floor needs to come up and re laid, the keel also needs some TLC and re glassing and sealing, and there is a lot of cosmetic work to be done. All in all, it’s a project boat. Where the transducer should be in the hull, there is wooden plugs in there, that needs to be fixed as well of course. Now not to sound like a sadest, I still have a hint of hope that I can make this work, though my original offer just got cut almost in half becase of the findings, but I’ll wait until I sit down with the surveyor to go over everything before I make a decision. Now for my questions: The surveyor advised me that replacing the bulkheads are not out of the scope of possibility for anyone with an inkling of being a handyman . The problem with the cockpit floor: a matter of re glassing, or laying teak and fiberglass, or something of the sort. And the keel repair seems pretty straight forward. It is a really nice looking boat and I hate seeing something as stately as a sailboat go to waste, when it should be looked after and cared for. Once the formal meeting takes place with the surveyor I will have much more detail to share, but this is it for now. My brain says look at another boat, but I really like the layout of this one, and “feel” I can make the repairs. Any thoughts?
Not the best Survey results
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Look at another boat
Dwayne... There are a lot of good boats out there. Do you want to sail or become "Bob Villa"? Whatever monie$ it will take to get her in good condition, you could have spent on another boat. Don't look back - just look at other boats. (The money spent on a surveyor is well worth it!).
Dwayne... There are a lot of good boats out there. Do you want to sail or become "Bob Villa"? Whatever monie$ it will take to get her in good condition, you could have spent on another boat. Don't look back - just look at other boats. (The money spent on a surveyor is well worth it!).
Me Too
I totally agree. The time, work and money spent of redoing this boat could well be spent sailing on another boat. They all need some work. All the time it seems. But with most, you can at least sail them while the work is in progress. That one sounds like a major rehab project.
I totally agree. The time, work and money spent of redoing this boat could well be spent sailing on another boat. They all need some work. All the time it seems. But with most, you can at least sail them while the work is in progress. That one sounds like a major rehab project.
DON"T DO IT
Dwayne, I have had my "fixer-upper" in the back yard for going on two years now. I did not have a survey, but knew what I was getting into, or so I thought. I have missed two years of sailing because I wanted a "deal" on a bigger boat (went fron 22' to 27'). The repairs you have mentioned also seem to be much like mine. Keep in mind, although well surveyed, he still may have missed something. Best of luck, Bryon
Dwayne, I have had my "fixer-upper" in the back yard for going on two years now. I did not have a survey, but knew what I was getting into, or so I thought. I have missed two years of sailing because I wanted a "deal" on a bigger boat (went fron 22' to 27'). The repairs you have mentioned also seem to be much like mine. Keep in mind, although well surveyed, he still may have missed something. Best of luck, Bryon
don't look back
Dwayne, I am going thru a similar experience. I found a Hunter 28 that I fell hard for. I knew she had a couple of not too major problems, and I negotiated the price accordingly. But when we did the survey, there were many, many more problems revealed. My initial thought was, 'Well, if the guy will reduce the price to the surveyed value, I'll bite the bullet and buy the boat and do the work.' But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I would be buying one headache after another. And from the wisdom of the folks on this board, I learned that for every problem you know about there are four others that you discover when you're fixing the first one. So, painful as it was, I backed off and am still looking for a boat. Since then I've learned that there are boats out there in MUCH better condition for not too much more money - less than I would've spent hassling with the project boat. And I took my survey day (I fully participated with the surveyor) as the BEST boat school I've EVER had, bar none. I am MUCH better equipped to boat shop now. I don't think I will ever be surprised with major repair issues again - minor ones maybe, but not major ones. I can't report my success to you yet, since I haven't bought that RIGHT boat, but I really feel like I'm moving in the right direction, and I am certainly not looking backwards. I KNOW I made the right decision by withdrawing my offer on the project boat. Good luck to you, and I hope to read of your success soon!!! Hope to report my own as well!
Dwayne, I am going thru a similar experience. I found a Hunter 28 that I fell hard for. I knew she had a couple of not too major problems, and I negotiated the price accordingly. But when we did the survey, there were many, many more problems revealed. My initial thought was, 'Well, if the guy will reduce the price to the surveyed value, I'll bite the bullet and buy the boat and do the work.' But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I would be buying one headache after another. And from the wisdom of the folks on this board, I learned that for every problem you know about there are four others that you discover when you're fixing the first one. So, painful as it was, I backed off and am still looking for a boat. Since then I've learned that there are boats out there in MUCH better condition for not too much more money - less than I would've spent hassling with the project boat. And I took my survey day (I fully participated with the surveyor) as the BEST boat school I've EVER had, bar none. I am MUCH better equipped to boat shop now. I don't think I will ever be surprised with major repair issues again - minor ones maybe, but not major ones. I can't report my success to you yet, since I haven't bought that RIGHT boat, but I really feel like I'm moving in the right direction, and I am certainly not looking backwards. I KNOW I made the right decision by withdrawing my offer on the project boat. Good luck to you, and I hope to read of your success soon!!! Hope to report my own as well!
Yor advise is well taken
I am slowly starting to admit that this is much more then maybe I can handle. I did see another boat, that was a little smaller (22') but it 'seems' in much better condition. The more I like the more I think I should just by a Laser and save for a boot less then 5 years old....wait, I can't afford that, oh well I guess I will have to keep looking. I guess a good rule of thumb is to have twice as much money as you spend on the purchase of your boat. I hope to find the boat of my dreams, which has been either a Sirius, or a Tanzer....I'm sure its out there in reasonable condition. My major problem is when I see something like this I think of it as a living thing.
I am slowly starting to admit that this is much more then maybe I can handle. I did see another boat, that was a little smaller (22') but it 'seems' in much better condition. The more I like the more I think I should just by a Laser and save for a boot less then 5 years old....wait, I can't afford that, oh well I guess I will have to keep looking. I guess a good rule of thumb is to have twice as much money as you spend on the purchase of your boat. I hope to find the boat of my dreams, which has been either a Sirius, or a Tanzer....I'm sure its out there in reasonable condition. My major problem is when I see something like this I think of it as a living thing.
Depends on What You Enjoy
You left out one of the most important aspects of all of this, what do you ENJOY doing? Would you enjoy doing the work that needs to be done? Would you enjoy doing PART of that you feel comfortable with, and hiring out the rest? If so, would you be able to afford to have the portion done that you don't feel comfortable with? Too many people assume that fixing a boat is "wasted time." If you enjoy the work, or the satisfaction of having done it yourself, then that's no more a "waste of time" than sailing across a like instead of motoring in a powerboat is a waste of time, or even driving across the bridge instead. I have two boats, a 25' foot O'Day that I've worked on regularly doing minor things in the three years I've had it. 6 months ago, we bought a 35' Coronado that's a project boat. We drive down to Lake Pontchartrain once every 4-6 weeks and work on the Coronado. We couldn't have afforded a "good shape" 35' sailboat, and we're getting pleasure out of bringing it back. On the other hand, we have the O'Day on the lake that's 15 minutes from home, so we can regularly get our "sailing fix". That said, I recently had to start replacing the bulkheads on the O'Day, so I now know how it feels to be working on boats, and not sailing any of them. So, even if you enjoy working on the boat, what you might want to do is pay a yard to get the boat sailable, then do the other repairs yourself in between sailing outings. All that said, if you do buy the boat, I would get estimates for what ALL of the repairs would cost if someone else were to do it, then deduct the major portion of that from the asking price, even the things you plan on doing yourself. Good luck, whichever way you decide to go.
You left out one of the most important aspects of all of this, what do you ENJOY doing? Would you enjoy doing the work that needs to be done? Would you enjoy doing PART of that you feel comfortable with, and hiring out the rest? If so, would you be able to afford to have the portion done that you don't feel comfortable with? Too many people assume that fixing a boat is "wasted time." If you enjoy the work, or the satisfaction of having done it yourself, then that's no more a "waste of time" than sailing across a like instead of motoring in a powerboat is a waste of time, or even driving across the bridge instead. I have two boats, a 25' foot O'Day that I've worked on regularly doing minor things in the three years I've had it. 6 months ago, we bought a 35' Coronado that's a project boat. We drive down to Lake Pontchartrain once every 4-6 weeks and work on the Coronado. We couldn't have afforded a "good shape" 35' sailboat, and we're getting pleasure out of bringing it back. On the other hand, we have the O'Day on the lake that's 15 minutes from home, so we can regularly get our "sailing fix". That said, I recently had to start replacing the bulkheads on the O'Day, so I now know how it feels to be working on boats, and not sailing any of them. So, even if you enjoy working on the boat, what you might want to do is pay a yard to get the boat sailable, then do the other repairs yourself in between sailing outings. All that said, if you do buy the boat, I would get estimates for what ALL of the repairs would cost if someone else were to do it, then deduct the major portion of that from the asking price, even the things you plan on doing yourself. Good luck, whichever way you decide to go.
Good question
Well, the Sureryor said it would cost $5,000 (He estimated high) to do ALL repairs. The asking price of the boat was $5K and I wittled it down to $4K with condition of a succesful survey. My new offer will be about $2.5K. I like the idea of fixing the boat myself...bringing it back from heading off to the scrap heap. I am just a tad nervous about ripping up the deck, to re lay it but your idea of getting a quote is something I did not think of, I just assumed to get a pro to do it would cost thousands and thousands.
Well, the Sureryor said it would cost $5,000 (He estimated high) to do ALL repairs. The asking price of the boat was $5K and I wittled it down to $4K with condition of a succesful survey. My new offer will be about $2.5K. I like the idea of fixing the boat myself...bringing it back from heading off to the scrap heap. I am just a tad nervous about ripping up the deck, to re lay it but your idea of getting a quote is something I did not think of, I just assumed to get a pro to do it would cost thousands and thousands.
Bring 'em back alive
There are literally thousands of similar projects out there, so if rescuing boats from the scrap heap is what you are looking for, you're in luck. However, you need to factor in LOST SAILING TIME. A project like this can eat up your free time, and every hour you put into it is an hour you are not on the water. Also, remember that the jobs you do on it that you haven't done before will take mucho extra time and probably won't be done to the level of quality that a pro would attain. So the resale value of the boat won't be what a stock boat in the same shape will be. There is a reason that so many people are advising you to walk away. We all need to follow a dream once in a while, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others, too.
There are literally thousands of similar projects out there, so if rescuing boats from the scrap heap is what you are looking for, you're in luck. However, you need to factor in LOST SAILING TIME. A project like this can eat up your free time, and every hour you put into it is an hour you are not on the water. Also, remember that the jobs you do on it that you haven't done before will take mucho extra time and probably won't be done to the level of quality that a pro would attain. So the resale value of the boat won't be what a stock boat in the same shape will be. There is a reason that so many people are advising you to walk away. We all need to follow a dream once in a while, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others, too.
I'll Say it Another Way
Last October, I was looking around in Wal-Mart and say a wooden rocking horse. I thought it would make a great present for my grandson who was almost two at the time. I asked me daughter if he'd like one, but one that I made instead, and she was thrilled. I had never done such a project before, but I bought plans, a few extra tools, some wood, and dug in. I spent about $125 in wood parts on the rocking horse. I didn't track the time I took, but I would estimate that it took me about 40 hours to cut, assemble, shand, and varnish the horse, then put the mane and tail on it. I can "calculate" this so many different ways. I could say I spent $125 in parts to build a toy that I could have purchased at Walmart for $40. I could say that I "wasted" 40 hours on a toy for an 18 month hold, and had I been working those 40 hours I would have made $1500. All those calculations make building my grandson's horse a pretty foolish effort. Instead, I think of the woodworking skills I learned that I'll now use on other "wasted" projects (like my boats.) I see the look on his face when he rides "trigger", and see the smile on my daughter's face when she talks about how he'll always know that "grampy" MADE the toy instead of just buying it. Some things have a value other than the dollar amount. Those on here really know that, or they wouldn't be wasting their time sailing, reading about sailing, and thinking about sailing. Over the three years that I have owned my O'Day 25, I've rewired most of the 12v system, installed shorepower, replaced all of the standing rigging, and virtually all of the running rigging. When I discovered the bulkhead had rotted, I decided not only to replace that, but to completely gut the interior and rebuild it the way my wife and I want it. The finished work on the boat will never be recovered in selling it, but I don't regret any of it. I know that boat inside and out now, having crawled over and inspected every portion of the boat. I don't regret any of the time and money spent on it. Dwayne, buy or don't buy the boat you've been looking at, but DON'T attempt to base the decison solely on intrinsic values. Most of us her can't justify the money we spend on our boats, and those that don't "waste time" working on them likely don't know or appreciate their boats nearly as much as those of us tha do so. If you make a decision based solely on intrinsic value, you won't end up in a sailboat. Buy what will bring pleasure to you. And, a final note, though surely not as common as stories about project that went wrong, there are plenty of good stories about rescued vessels that have great endings.
Last October, I was looking around in Wal-Mart and say a wooden rocking horse. I thought it would make a great present for my grandson who was almost two at the time. I asked me daughter if he'd like one, but one that I made instead, and she was thrilled. I had never done such a project before, but I bought plans, a few extra tools, some wood, and dug in. I spent about $125 in wood parts on the rocking horse. I didn't track the time I took, but I would estimate that it took me about 40 hours to cut, assemble, shand, and varnish the horse, then put the mane and tail on it. I can "calculate" this so many different ways. I could say I spent $125 in parts to build a toy that I could have purchased at Walmart for $40. I could say that I "wasted" 40 hours on a toy for an 18 month hold, and had I been working those 40 hours I would have made $1500. All those calculations make building my grandson's horse a pretty foolish effort. Instead, I think of the woodworking skills I learned that I'll now use on other "wasted" projects (like my boats.) I see the look on his face when he rides "trigger", and see the smile on my daughter's face when she talks about how he'll always know that "grampy" MADE the toy instead of just buying it. Some things have a value other than the dollar amount. Those on here really know that, or they wouldn't be wasting their time sailing, reading about sailing, and thinking about sailing. Over the three years that I have owned my O'Day 25, I've rewired most of the 12v system, installed shorepower, replaced all of the standing rigging, and virtually all of the running rigging. When I discovered the bulkhead had rotted, I decided not only to replace that, but to completely gut the interior and rebuild it the way my wife and I want it. The finished work on the boat will never be recovered in selling it, but I don't regret any of it. I know that boat inside and out now, having crawled over and inspected every portion of the boat. I don't regret any of the time and money spent on it. Dwayne, buy or don't buy the boat you've been looking at, but DON'T attempt to base the decison solely on intrinsic values. Most of us her can't justify the money we spend on our boats, and those that don't "waste time" working on them likely don't know or appreciate their boats nearly as much as those of us tha do so. If you make a decision based solely on intrinsic value, you won't end up in a sailboat. Buy what will bring pleasure to you. And, a final note, though surely not as common as stories about project that went wrong, there are plenty of good stories about rescued vessels that have great endings.
Next Boat Please
Like many of the other posts have said, move on. There is a sea of boats out there, so why go with one that needs major structural work. For less money overall, you can get a boat that is in better shape and that will meet your needs.
Like many of the other posts have said, move on. There is a sea of boats out there, so why go with one that needs major structural work. For less money overall, you can get a boat that is in better shape and that will meet your needs.
pride in ownership
Hmmm, great points and I understand what you are saying. I don't want to become a boat builder, but I am not yet a sailer. This was going to be my first, and my learning boat. I expect that cosmetic things need to be replaced, thats fine. Here is my new game plan after taking in a lot of great advise ( I won't be leaving this forum) : I will talk to a pro about the keel, and the ports in the hull for the depth sounder and knot meter and what it will cost me to get them done professionaly. I am thinking this is about a $1000 CDN worth of work. The replacing of the bulkheads, again perhaps a pro job, but I'll see what is required there, as cost goes, though I don't see the bulkheads being all that expensive to have done by a pro. Again, this is coming from a newbie (grain of salt). The running rigging, well sails (used) if I find them will not be cheap, say $1500, or $4000 new. Now the floor in the cockpit: not sure how structully sound that is, there is moisture damage near the pedestal for the wheel, as well as around the backup tiller connection. That I THINK can wait a couple of years to be replaced, and if I do pull up that floor perhaps I'll teak it? as for the spongy floor going forward in the cabin...same thing (minus the teak), I THINK, and the spider cracks there as well. Though I just had a thought: given the damage to the keel, and the spider cracks (3 of em if I remember, not very long, a few inches), could be related. Am I way under in my estimation of cost? Once I talk to the surveyor again, he'll probably talk me into walking away from this, which wont take much coxing. But, in the same breath I just see this as a lot of elbow grease, and as long as the keel, ports for insturments in the hull, and the bulkheads are fixed; she's ready to sail.....of course thats if the sails that are with her (2 sets), can be salvaged at all.
Hmmm, great points and I understand what you are saying. I don't want to become a boat builder, but I am not yet a sailer. This was going to be my first, and my learning boat. I expect that cosmetic things need to be replaced, thats fine. Here is my new game plan after taking in a lot of great advise ( I won't be leaving this forum) : I will talk to a pro about the keel, and the ports in the hull for the depth sounder and knot meter and what it will cost me to get them done professionaly. I am thinking this is about a $1000 CDN worth of work. The replacing of the bulkheads, again perhaps a pro job, but I'll see what is required there, as cost goes, though I don't see the bulkheads being all that expensive to have done by a pro. Again, this is coming from a newbie (grain of salt). The running rigging, well sails (used) if I find them will not be cheap, say $1500, or $4000 new. Now the floor in the cockpit: not sure how structully sound that is, there is moisture damage near the pedestal for the wheel, as well as around the backup tiller connection. That I THINK can wait a couple of years to be replaced, and if I do pull up that floor perhaps I'll teak it? as for the spongy floor going forward in the cabin...same thing (minus the teak), I THINK, and the spider cracks there as well. Though I just had a thought: given the damage to the keel, and the spider cracks (3 of em if I remember, not very long, a few inches), could be related. Am I way under in my estimation of cost? Once I talk to the surveyor again, he'll probably talk me into walking away from this, which wont take much coxing. But, in the same breath I just see this as a lot of elbow grease, and as long as the keel, ports for insturments in the hull, and the bulkheads are fixed; she's ready to sail.....of course thats if the sails that are with her (2 sets), can be salvaged at all.
Good point
Yup, that is a direction I will probably end up going. Just really hate giving up. A sea of boats, good pun. LOL.
Yup, that is a direction I will probably end up going. Just really hate giving up. A sea of boats, good pun. LOL.
Good old Boats??
We bought our boat (a 76 Hunter 30) from a charity (whose I dont know)for $1750.00, back in September. I knew it needed a lot of work, but I like repairing things, and in the scheme of things boats are not hard, just tight spaces. I never owned a boat before. We spent $10,000.00, including the cost of a new engine. It has all new tanks, new plumbing, new electric, and a whole new cabin. I just had it surveyed and he put the BUC price at $17,500.00 and the replacement value at $95,000.00. Those are his figures, not mine. I didn't get all the repairs done, some can wait till the winter. But its what you enjoy and what you want in a boat that counts. I really enjoyed (most of the time) putting a little life back in "Rover". We launched her last friday without a hitch, and I am sure she will serve us well for years to come.
We bought our boat (a 76 Hunter 30) from a charity (whose I dont know)for $1750.00, back in September. I knew it needed a lot of work, but I like repairing things, and in the scheme of things boats are not hard, just tight spaces. I never owned a boat before. We spent $10,000.00, including the cost of a new engine. It has all new tanks, new plumbing, new electric, and a whole new cabin. I just had it surveyed and he put the BUC price at $17,500.00 and the replacement value at $95,000.00. Those are his figures, not mine. I didn't get all the repairs done, some can wait till the winter. But its what you enjoy and what you want in a boat that counts. I really enjoyed (most of the time) putting a little life back in "Rover". We launched her last friday without a hitch, and I am sure she will serve us well for years to come.
Look Here............
Check out these sites, lot of boats for sale: www.sailnet.com/boatsearch www.yachtworld.com www.catalinaowners.com www.boatus.com www.ablboats.com www.boats.com www.sailboatlistings.com/
Check out these sites, lot of boats for sale: www.sailnet.com/boatsearch www.yachtworld.com www.catalinaowners.com www.boatus.com www.ablboats.com www.boats.com www.sailboatlistings.com/
A thought.
If you're buying the boat to "flip", walk away, because you seem to be unsure of the numbers. If you want to restore this boat because you love its charachter and beauty, if you can see yourself proudly sailing a restored classic that reflects your spirit and craftsmanship, then GO FOR IT!.... how can you put a price tag on that. It's like leasing a new car every 4 years or restoring the classic car your grandfather left you.
If you're buying the boat to "flip", walk away, because you seem to be unsure of the numbers. If you want to restore this boat because you love its charachter and beauty, if you can see yourself proudly sailing a restored classic that reflects your spirit and craftsmanship, then GO FOR IT!.... how can you put a price tag on that. It's like leasing a new car every 4 years or restoring the classic car your grandfather left you.
Go back and check the Grampian site -
There are lots of G-26 for sale in your price range. Many of them are very well maintained, and will pass a survey with flying colours. Several Tanzers are for sale locally (Oakville) as well. Good luck!!!
There are lots of G-26 for sale in your price range. Many of them are very well maintained, and will pass a survey with flying colours. Several Tanzers are for sale locally (Oakville) as well. Good luck!!!
another thought
Dwayne, I just read your post "pride for ownership".... My suggestion is to save the projects until you have more sailing experience. Get yourself a Cat 22 in decent condition, then spend a year or so on it. It'll be easy to sell when you're ready to move on and you'll have learned a whole bunch more.
Dwayne, I just read your post "pride for ownership".... My suggestion is to save the projects until you have more sailing experience. Get yourself a Cat 22 in decent condition, then spend a year or so on it. It'll be easy to sell when you're ready to move on and you'll have learned a whole bunch more.
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