so Ive not given it too much thought but, I would like to know what differences or comparisions the PHRF #s relate to hull speed. is it sorta like hull speed is the top end of a car and the PHRF # is how fast it is thru the 1/4 mile?? I know the PHRF # is used to handicap different types of boats but, where do the #s come from? just wondering???
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Seconds/Mile
The PHRF rating is based upon the seconds a mile given or taken to find a corrected time for a race. A rating of 100 would take 100 seconds away for every mile in a race from the actual finish time. Thus a boat with a rating of 90 would have to beat a boat with a rating of 100 by at least 50 seconds to "win" a five mile race. The ratings are supposed to be on the performance of a boat in about 8 knots of wind. Of course we race in different conditions, and the rating stays the same. Steve
The PHRF rating is based upon the seconds a mile given or taken to find a corrected time for a race. A rating of 100 would take 100 seconds away for every mile in a race from the actual finish time. Thus a boat with a rating of 90 would have to beat a boat with a rating of 100 by at least 50 seconds to "win" a five mile race. The ratings are supposed to be on the performance of a boat in about 8 knots of wind. Of course we race in different conditions, and the rating stays the same. Steve
OK, I understand
the concept but, how fast the boat sails the mile depends alot on the skipper and his crew. given that fact do they ever upgrade or down grade the #s. do they take an average of several skippper and boats? as stated before I never really thought much about until several people here on sailnet starting throwing the PHRF #s around as if they were "the gospel".
the concept but, how fast the boat sails the mile depends alot on the skipper and his crew. given that fact do they ever upgrade or down grade the #s. do they take an average of several skippper and boats? as stated before I never really thought much about until several people here on sailnet starting throwing the PHRF #s around as if they were "the gospel".
Ratings are boat's, not Skipper's...
The rating is based upon the boat's performance, not the skipper's or crew's ability or lack thereof. It is assumed the boat is race ready, with good sails (all legal, and numerous), clean bottom, and a folding, feathering, or retracting prop. Credits are given for fixed props and furling sails. AS far as being gospel, it is more of a local decision by local people. Politics, friendships, and lack of can play a factor but it is denied. The longer a rating is around, the harder it is to change. It is important to get it right early, or be prepared for a long (years, typically 3-6 seconds per year) fight to get it corrected. Does this answer your question? Steve
The rating is based upon the boat's performance, not the skipper's or crew's ability or lack thereof. It is assumed the boat is race ready, with good sails (all legal, and numerous), clean bottom, and a folding, feathering, or retracting prop. Credits are given for fixed props and furling sails. AS far as being gospel, it is more of a local decision by local people. Politics, friendships, and lack of can play a factor but it is denied. The longer a rating is around, the harder it is to change. It is important to get it right early, or be prepared for a long (years, typically 3-6 seconds per year) fight to get it corrected. Does this answer your question? Steve
it does somewhat
but, unless the boat is able to sail itself the ability of the skipper and crew used to set the orginal numbers must come into play. unless Im missing something here? further, am I to assume that they may vary from club to club or yachting association? if so it sounds alot like a golfing handicap to me. not that I know anything about golfing either. I always have subscibed to the old Goucho Marx adage of "I would never belong to any club that would have me as a member!"
but, unless the boat is able to sail itself the ability of the skipper and crew used to set the orginal numbers must come into play. unless Im missing something here? further, am I to assume that they may vary from club to club or yachting association? if so it sounds alot like a golfing handicap to me. not that I know anything about golfing either. I always have subscibed to the old Goucho Marx adage of "I would never belong to any club that would have me as a member!"
The handicap is a culmination of results that ...
...generate an average. It's not one guy going out and setting a time that remains final.
...generate an average. It's not one guy going out and setting a time that remains final.
it's a trial and error type of thing
if a boat is winning all the time on corrected time the phrf will change. It's kinda like handicapping a horse that's winning by making it carry more weight. The theory is that with the right phrf the boats ability is negated and it all depends upon the sailing ability of the crew. Some boats do better in high winds or light winds therefore you get different phrf's for the same model of boat raced in Choctawhatchee bay as opposed to San Francisco bay. I've looked at my P-323 and have seen ratings over 200 and low as 180. Also different rating with a spinnaker or genoa. In general longer boats have lower phrf's. If you surf around there is a site that gives the boat with a phrf of 0.
if a boat is winning all the time on corrected time the phrf will change. It's kinda like handicapping a horse that's winning by making it carry more weight. The theory is that with the right phrf the boats ability is negated and it all depends upon the sailing ability of the crew. Some boats do better in high winds or light winds therefore you get different phrf's for the same model of boat raced in Choctawhatchee bay as opposed to San Francisco bay. I've looked at my P-323 and have seen ratings over 200 and low as 180. Also different rating with a spinnaker or genoa. In general longer boats have lower phrf's. If you surf around there is a site that gives the boat with a phrf of 0.
OK, I understand now
it's a arbitrary number pulled out of someone(s) butt, used to argue why someone did or didnt win a race over a couple beers. makes perfect sense now!
it's a arbitrary number pulled out of someone(s) butt, used to argue why someone did or didnt win a race over a couple beers. makes perfect sense now!
Negative PHRF's
I've raced boats with negative ratings. These numbers are for the "sleds". PHRF is not just a factor of hull speed. Pointing ability and planning plays a large roll in the number aswell. Each local PHRF committee will set the numbers for its racing area and they may be different to another but the difference in ratings between boats in one area should be pretty close to the difference in those same boats in another.
I've raced boats with negative ratings. These numbers are for the "sleds". PHRF is not just a factor of hull speed. Pointing ability and planning plays a large roll in the number aswell. Each local PHRF committee will set the numbers for its racing area and they may be different to another but the difference in ratings between boats in one area should be pretty close to the difference in those same boats in another.
One Design PHRFs
Dan Just that you're now understanding, there's also the one design fleets who also have their own PHRFs. By own I mean either within their own fleets, and/or for use when racing against other boats - usually both). We race our Catalina 34 against only other Catalina 34s. We have a large enough group to get our own starts in summer and winter races, and we have both national Regattas every two years and an annual (new) SF Bay C34 regatta. Although the boats all are the same, basically, there are differences. These include: size of headsail (max. 130% here on SF Bay, but elsewhere they allow larger ones in non-spinnaker events, we race a 110 against th other guys' 130s), fixed blade vs folding props, 2 blades vs 3 blades, height of jib off foredeck (cruisers are usually higher), and furling or no furling. Age doesn't matter, skipper, crew or boat. #8 (1986) wins regularly here, as does #707 and #1476 (Mark II). It's always fun to race with similar boats, rather than waiting till next Tuesday to find out the results from a passel of different clorox bottles! We assume you know what phrf stands for (phlinty hoary racing fanatics). Stu PS I'm not a crazed racer, I just think of it as a great way to have a cruise with some destinations thrown in! So much of the fun of racing has to do with the folks you're competing with (rather than against), and this group is great.
Dan Just that you're now understanding, there's also the one design fleets who also have their own PHRFs. By own I mean either within their own fleets, and/or for use when racing against other boats - usually both). We race our Catalina 34 against only other Catalina 34s. We have a large enough group to get our own starts in summer and winter races, and we have both national Regattas every two years and an annual (new) SF Bay C34 regatta. Although the boats all are the same, basically, there are differences. These include: size of headsail (max. 130% here on SF Bay, but elsewhere they allow larger ones in non-spinnaker events, we race a 110 against th other guys' 130s), fixed blade vs folding props, 2 blades vs 3 blades, height of jib off foredeck (cruisers are usually higher), and furling or no furling. Age doesn't matter, skipper, crew or boat. #8 (1986) wins regularly here, as does #707 and #1476 (Mark II). It's always fun to race with similar boats, rather than waiting till next Tuesday to find out the results from a passel of different clorox bottles! We assume you know what phrf stands for (phlinty hoary racing fanatics). Stu PS I'm not a crazed racer, I just think of it as a great way to have a cruise with some destinations thrown in! So much of the fun of racing has to do with the folks you're competing with (rather than against), and this group is great.
It's not arbitrary at all,
but rather a carefully derived system that lets people race vastly different boats and (theoretically, at least) all have a chance to win. It is based on years of accumulated data describing a given boat's past performance. It means you can race a Catalina 22 against a Pearson 26 and a Hunter 34 and have a realistic chance of winning the race. Most folks can't afford to own an all-out race boat and a cruiser with the amenities, too. So phrf allows them to race whatever they have and win a trophy if they do a good job. Many people who love to race could not do so (in an organized system) without phrf. Some associations adjust phrf numbers for individual boats, based on last year's performance. If one guy ran away with it last year, he takes a little hit this year - if another guy with the same model boat finished back of the pack, he gets a little help. Makes for closer finishes and shorter fingernails.
but rather a carefully derived system that lets people race vastly different boats and (theoretically, at least) all have a chance to win. It is based on years of accumulated data describing a given boat's past performance. It means you can race a Catalina 22 against a Pearson 26 and a Hunter 34 and have a realistic chance of winning the race. Most folks can't afford to own an all-out race boat and a cruiser with the amenities, too. So phrf allows them to race whatever they have and win a trophy if they do a good job. Many people who love to race could not do so (in an organized system) without phrf. Some associations adjust phrf numbers for individual boats, based on last year's performance. If one guy ran away with it last year, he takes a little hit this year - if another guy with the same model boat finished back of the pack, he gets a little help. Makes for closer finishes and shorter fingernails.
Here's a pretty good source
for checking ratings on a LOT of boats: http://www.phrfne.org/baseh.htm
for checking ratings on a LOT of boats: http://www.phrfne.org/baseh.htm
Bob, not arbitrary at all????
from Webster, arbitrary 1:depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law 2a)not restrained or limited in the exercise of power:ruling by absolute authority (b)marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power from what everyone has posted here it sure sounds ARBITRARY to me! LMAO hey Stu, got your drift! does sound fun but, it's the crusising life for me!
from Webster, arbitrary 1:depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law 2
a)not restrained or limited in the exercise of power:ruling by absolute authority (b)marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power from what everyone has posted here it sure sounds ARBITRARY to me! LMAO hey Stu, got your drift! does sound fun but, it's the crusising life for me! You're out of line Dan
... you asked a legitimate question regarding what phrf ratings are... and how they were related to theoretical hull speed. Instead of doing what normal folks do, which is research the subject on their own, you chose the LAZY way by asking this group your question. Then, you ridicule the answers you receive by using the dictionary defense or saying you prefer cruising to racing! That's totally rude and offensive to those who spend the time trying to sincerely answer your question. Grow up.
... you asked a legitimate question regarding what phrf ratings are... and how they were related to theoretical hull speed. Instead of doing what normal folks do, which is research the subject on their own, you chose the LAZY way by asking this group your question. Then, you ridicule the answers you receive by using the dictionary defense or saying you prefer cruising to racing! That's totally rude and offensive to those who spend the time trying to sincerely answer your question. Grow up.
Not entirely fair Joe!
Coming in late, it seems pretty obvious that Dan's remark was intended to be "tongue in cheek". As a former PHRF racer, I know that is rarely true and that almost all PHRF committees take thier responsibilities very seriously and issue handicaps with the utmost integrity. Unfortunately, those rare lapses are what garner the most attention and annoyance. I always get a chuckle, both at how much perceived 'truth' such hyperbole carries and how much indignation it inspires in those who take it too literally or personally. It is Friday...laugh it off and mess about in boats. Best Regards,
Coming in late, it seems pretty obvious that Dan's remark was intended to be "tongue in cheek". As a former PHRF racer, I know that is rarely true and that almost all PHRF committees take thier responsibilities very seriously and issue handicaps with the utmost integrity. Unfortunately, those rare lapses are what garner the most attention and annoyance. I always get a chuckle, both at how much perceived 'truth' such hyperbole carries and how much indignation it inspires in those who take it too literally or personally. It is Friday...laugh it off and mess about in boats. Best Regards,
thanks Chris
it was meant as "tongue in cheek" sorry if the humor went over some heads. and for the record Joe, yes I am lazy! sorry you were offended. I thought we were talking about a fun subject SAILING!
it was meant as "tongue in cheek" sorry if the humor went over some heads. and for the record Joe, yes I am lazy! sorry you were offended. I thought we were talking about a fun subject SAILING!
We lost sight of
that part of the question that asked the relationship between phrf and hull speed. I've never thought of the two as being that closely related, other than the fact that longer boats have higher hull speeds and tend to have lower phrf numbers. Plenty of "dogs" have hull speeds equal to those of much lower phrf-ed boats, but their other characteristics don't make them as quick in race conditions. There are boats within a foot of my boats length that are rated more than a minute a mile slower, and others rated more than a minute faster. Our hull speeds are almost the same.
that part of the question that asked the relationship between phrf and hull speed. I've never thought of the two as being that closely related, other than the fact that longer boats have higher hull speeds and tend to have lower phrf numbers. Plenty of "dogs" have hull speeds equal to those of much lower phrf-ed boats, but their other characteristics don't make them as quick in race conditions. There are boats within a foot of my boats length that are rated more than a minute a mile slower, and others rated more than a minute faster. Our hull speeds are almost the same.
Chris....
...Your comment is appreciated. No one will argue with you regarding the nature of committee politics. My criticism is that Dan initiated a thread, then proceeded to ridicule and opinionate the responses to his own questions. That's bad manners. If you have the time, read the entire thread from the begining and you'll see what I mean.
...Your comment is appreciated. No one will argue with you regarding the nature of committee politics. My criticism is that Dan initiated a thread, then proceeded to ridicule and opinionate the responses to his own questions. That's bad manners. If you have the time, read the entire thread from the begining and you'll see what I mean.
I beg your pardon sir!
where I come from, bad manners comes with a poor sense of humor and comments like "your out of line". when I made the comment that it sounds like an arbitarary # and someone comes back and says it is not arbitrary at all and gets all riled up over nothing, when it fits the exact difinition. Im sorry but, I take exception. I never ridiculed anyone, if they took it as ridicule all I can say is they are very "soft skined" another sign of bad manners. as for opinionated, yep I am and if you are honest you will admit you are too. we all have opinions, as the ole adage goes "opinions are like assholes, everybody got one". my apology goes out to everyone on the board. and thanks to everyone who replied.
where I come from, bad manners comes with a poor sense of humor and comments like "your out of line". when I made the comment that it sounds like an arbitarary # and someone comes back and says it is not arbitrary at all and gets all riled up over nothing, when it fits the exact difinition. Im sorry but, I take exception. I never ridiculed anyone, if they took it as ridicule all I can say is they are very "soft skined" another sign of bad manners. as for opinionated, yep I am and if you are honest you will admit you are too. we all have opinions, as the ole adage goes "opinions are like assholes, everybody got one". my apology goes out to everyone on the board. and thanks to everyone who replied.
Civility
Must have been a stressful week everywhere... please keep discussions civil and remember that the forum policies do not permit flaming. Personal attacks may be removed from the board, sometimes taking good topics with them. Also, a reminder that email does not carry with it body language or intonation. This deficiency can make it tough to determine whether someone is angry, joking, upset, etc. Using an emoticon can make posts easier to interpret. And reading them with an extra measure of tolerance is a good idea, too. Thanks!
Must have been a stressful week everywhere... please keep discussions civil and remember that the forum policies do not permit flaming. Personal attacks may be removed from the board, sometimes taking good topics with them. Also, a reminder that email does not carry with it body language or intonation. This deficiency can make it tough to determine whether someone is angry, joking, upset, etc. Using an emoticon can make posts easier to interpret. And reading them with an extra measure of tolerance is a good idea, too. Thanks!
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