North Sails Radian NorDac or Ullman Bi-Radial

[bshock]

Hello All, I posted this on another forum a couple days ago but received no responses so I thought I'd post it here as well.

I'm close to deciding on replacement sails and I've narrowed it down to North Sails or Ullman. Both will come out and measure and install sails, and install Dutchman flaking. North is quoting their NPC Radian NorDac and Ullman is quoting their Dacron Bi-Radial.

In my research I've only seen tri-radial, not bi-radial. any idea if bi-radial is inferior or even if North's Radian NorDac is tri-radial, bi-radial, or what?

I've never bought new sails before so this is a huge learning process for me. It's a big investment. I was simply going to go with crosscut sails, but I've got it in the budget to go with Radial if I wish to, and from what I hear the Radial will be more durable and hold it's shape better. Overkill for my type of sailing right now? Probably, but other than the added expense I don't see a downside going with Radial.

Any insight and advice is tremendously appreciated!!

 

[David in Sandusky]

I would ask your prospective sailmakers about the technology of their sails (biradial, triradial, etc.) ask them both about their offering and their competitors. When I first bought sails in 2000/01, I had roughly equivalent prices for similar offerings from reputable lofts. So I made the decision on who made the best sense to me - who I thought would teach me about sails, and give me the best advice on what to buy and how to use them. In the end, I selected Greg Koski, now of Ullman Sails in Euclid. Over the past 17 years Greg has added substantial value to our cruising life on the Great Lakes with his knowledge and suggestions. I would add if you plan to race, Greg does a huge business with the racing community in the Cleveland area.

My point is that any of the name sailmakers will provide you with good sails. So give strong consideration to the sailmaker and how he helps you think through your decision.

 

[Parsons]

A good sailmaker's representative should take the time to explain the differences and advantages of both his, and his competitions', material and construction. The North Sails rep in our area is a well-known local sailor who went for a short sail with me, evaluated my sailing style and goals, and made recommendations for North products. He discussed the useful life of each type of material, and cost considerations. He could also discuss the competition. He certainly did not just "measure and take an order." If the person will not give you value-added advice, you can get it cheaper by taking your own measurements (there are only a half-dozen, after all), and ordering on the internet. What you're paying the premium for is that hand holding, so expect it. I assume that you got recommendations from your dock mates regarding which local sailmakers to trust?

As you will find on this forum, or talking to sailmakers, the useful performance life of a sail is directly related to cost. Cross-cut sails look like sails forever, but stretch so badly that their performance useful life is short. Radials hold their shape better, longer. Laminates hold the exact shape they were molded to, until they literally fall apart (there is no out-of-shape period afterwards, it's trash). BTW: All sailmakers' web sites are terrible. The above explanation is hidden by marketing words such as performance, economy, and quality - not plainly stated.
As I replace my main this winter, I'll probably get North NPC Radian, which is a tri-radial, as shown in the photo's on the site. I'm also replacing the Dutchman that came standard with a Lazy Jack and boom bag system to ease main sail handing. It's probably something you want to consider at this time.

 

[FastOlson]

We have a cruising composite jib from North. Great sail. Probably never wear it out. As others have said, it kind of gets down to people -- both of your choices can build a good product.
One warning, if I may... avoid the "dutchman" system with all of the grommets and fish line. It's not good for sail shape, and when parts break it's a hassle to service. Just go with a split sail cover and retractable lazy jacks, like the UK Lazycradle. Each sailmaker has their version of it. This "storage" method does not mess with the shape of the main.
Specifically about the Dutchman scheme, note that sailmakers, in an effort to pay the rent and put food on their table, seldom 'lead' when you start dancing.... having found that customers with predetermined beliefs will walk if they try too hard to educate them, they will give you what you say you want. Even if it's not the preferred solution.
If you start with a fox trot and change to waltz or samba steps, they will follow and try not to step on your feet!

Holland is a great country with interesting history, but that method of having a main robotically flake itself has some major downsides.

We have found that our (as called by UK) Lazycradle lets the main drop into the cover with minimal "straightening and tugging of folds". And our sail retains all of its shape.

Fair winds,
Loren

 

[The Shadow Knows]

BS (no pun intended),

Several years ago, I needed a new headsail.
After getting local quotes, I discovered Rolly Tasker Sails.
He was an Australian America's cup racer at one time.
He has a sail loft in Singapore that a local sailmaker worked with.
Sitting down with him, we drew up the 155 high cut I wanted complete with see-thru windows
& telltales.

It is a well made sail that was shipped to my sail loft guy first for my approval.
It's exactly what I wanted & I saved 30% on pricing. The turn-a-round time was 3 weeks approx.

Here's a link for more info if you wish to check him out:
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...0.0.0.7322...........0.ZCBYWpcgKcc&gws_rd=ssl

Good luck............

 

[Gunni]

I can't help you with making sense of what North or Ullman sell, but I will note that I have never seen any rep from either post on the forums while Bob Pattison of Neil Pryde is a regular contributor. I do endorse the tri-radial sail as a cost effective performance option. The only mainsail I ever managed to destroy was fitted with a Dutchman system. When the grommets popped off the monofilament guide lines proceded to cut the sail like a cheese slicer. Some guys like it, I wouldn't have a Dutchman system. Come down to the Annapolis Boat show and talk to all the sailmakers, study carefully.

 

[The Shadow Knows]

I agree with Gunni,

The Dutchman system, take a few years for breakdown & wear, has never interested me.
I've had to flake my main in some really tough conditions but done properly,
has really never been a problem for me.

 

[Jackdaw]

Both North Radian NorDac and Ullman Dacron Bi-Radial are their brandnames for Dacron sailcloth that is designed to be 2-3x stronger (tenacity) in one direction vs the other. Neither of them make the cloth, it DP or Bainbridge or Challanger etc.

Opposed to standard dacron, this type of sailcloth is best used in sails that are cut bi-radial or tri-radial. In a radial sail, the panels radiate outwards from the corners along the loadpaths. The cloth is oriented so the stronger 'load' dimension is along the strip. A bi-radial is slightly cheaper and usually does not have tack loadpathing. You can see both here on BlueJ, bi-radial on the jib and tri-radial on the main.

Radial sails are much more costly not because of just materials, but because of labor, there is several times the labor in cutting and sewing all the small, carefully shaped panels vs a broadseamed sail.

The upside is much better sailshape, out of the box and into the future.

 

[jon hansen]

good explanation of sail cloth fibers. dupont no longer make dacron. hasn't for years
http://www.doylesails.com/design/fiber.html

 

[bshock]

Thanks so much folks, I'll reconsider the Dutchman system. Jackdaw, why did you go with bi-radial on the jib? Would tri-radial have been inappropriate?

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks so much folks, I'll reconsider the Dutchman system. Jackdaw, why did you go with bi-radial on the jib? Would tri-radial have been inappropriate?

The sail designer said based on the sailmaterial used, it would not have made any difference in the sail - short or longer term. So I saved a few bucks.

 

[bshock]

Gotcha, thanks so much Jackdaw, as well as everyone else.

 

[John Nantz]

Just finished a post for someone else considering a new sail so will have one of the same comments here. With regard to the cut style, I wouldn't automatically rule out the crosscut. It's the old cost vs. benefit, the main benefits being sail shape and longevity. If one isn't into racing and the sail dimensions are anywhere near close to the limit for one cloth weight I'd recommend going with the next heavier weight sail cloth because it won't loose it's shape so fast. Weight aloft? It will be a little bit more but on the typical high volume production boat there are many other factors to consider with regard to performance so it isn't that significant. Our North main is 20 years old and the draft stripes show that the shape is as good as new according to the Seattle North sail loft. Just had some re-stiching done last winter so that is a recent assessment.

With regard to the Dutchman flaking system, the original system on the boat is 30 years old now and when it came time to get the new main it was a tough decision, continue or go different. Since I do a lot of single handing the flaking system is an important consideration and after considering all the options I wound up continuing with it. This is an earlier system that doesn't use the monofilament lines but uses a small diameter plastic coated cable with reinforced webbing slits (slit with a hot knife) sewn in the sail cloth. This has worked perfectly on the first UK sail as well on the current North sail. For those with problems maybe the solution is to revert back to the earlier style.

If performance is important, put the money in a low-drag prop.

 

[shemandr]

As I have posted before I like the Dutchman system. I actually had one on my Mark 25 keelboat which had a 40' mast and an enormous main sail, which would have been hard to control once dropped. I didn't have all these problems with it. It was clean, it worked and it didn't ruin the sail shape. That was my experience. As Stu says YBYC.

 

[LakeOntario270]

"If performance is important, put the money in a low-drag prop."