One of my objectives this last weekend at the US Sailboat Show in Annapolis was to speak with representatives of Hunter regarding the clearance between the bottom of my shower sump and the hull. Yes, I too am plagued by the ever present water draining back into the shower floor on a port tack and am fed up with it! My preferred fix would be to install a prefab unit from Westmarine which would actually drop lower than the shower floor and thus prevent backflow of the residual water. While my wife fed our 8wk old daughter tucked away in a corner of the fabulous Hunter booth, I hunted down a group of company reps, who quickly passed me off to their tech guy (after they suggested that the appropriate fix for my problem was to drop lots of $$$$ on a new model!. Much to my dissapointment, I was told that Hunter doesn't have drawings for my boat, and to the best of his knowledge, they never did! He explained that in the old days they designed as they built, and didn't use drawings. (Don't know that I believe him, but that was his story and he was sticking to it!) So... Can anyone answer my question? What is the clearance between the bottom of the defectively designed shower sump and the inside of the hull directly below? Has anyne attempted to cut the bottom out and install something in it's place? Well, all was not lost, Sailnet gave me a quote for a complete set of replacement portlights of $544 no tax no shipping!
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portlights
You should be able to replace your portlights thru Thrifty Mariner for about 50% of that quote or less.
You should be able to replace your portlights thru Thrifty Mariner for about 50% of that quote or less.
Portlights
I called Thrifty Mariners two weeks ago. Unfortunately, they don't have any seconds and don't expect any. Best price they could give me was about twice the quote from Sailnet.
I called Thrifty Mariners two weeks ago. Unfortunately, they don't have any seconds and don't expect any. Best price they could give me was about twice the quote from Sailnet.
Designed as they built???? Sure!!
Nobody, even that long ago designed a good size production boat "AS THEY WENT". Molds, forms and jigs had to be made up to manufacture their product in quantity. There were full sets of drawings of everything. There had to be because a very large percentage of it was manufactured bu contractors. Rudder tube and rudder tube packing nut, (my own experience) rudder, toe rail, shaft log, prop strut, mast compression post, hatches, rails, so-on and so-on. The problem is (and my biggest gripe with Hunter) is that they destroyed all the drawings. No one seems to be willing or able to explain why. For that matter, as you've discovered, Hunter would prefer that older boats (Mostly those more than 6 moinths old) simply disappear off the face of the earth and not bother them and not present an obstacle to selling new boats. That obviously is not going to happen. Hunter might be well served to realize that in large part the sale of older boats is what enables people to buy new boats. They should be kissing us buyers of older boats, not kissing us off. Unfortunately you ran into a bunch of typical nitwits who probably thought they were awfully cute. Typical used car salesman mentality. As to your clearance problen, I wish I had a definitve answer for you. My 33 does the same thing with water on the floor of the head compartment. What I can tell you is that it has been my experiencte that there is at least an inch of clearance between the hull and liner in most areas. The shower sump is flat while the hull under it is slightly "V'ed", which means there is more than likely better than 1 inch. How to find out? Drill a very small hole in the pan, say 1/8 inch, being careful to go through ONLY the sump. Stick a piece of wire through the hole till it hits the inside of the hull. Mark it and pull it out. That length less the thickness of the pan is your clearance. Do this in several spots and you'll have a good picture of what's under there. I've done this in several spots.) If you decide not to proceed just mash some prepared epoxy putty into the holes , smooth it off and let it cure. Bingo! Good as new. Let us know how you do with this one.
Nobody, even that long ago designed a good size production boat "AS THEY WENT". Molds, forms and jigs had to be made up to manufacture their product in quantity. There were full sets of drawings of everything. There had to be because a very large percentage of it was manufactured bu contractors. Rudder tube and rudder tube packing nut, (my own experience) rudder, toe rail, shaft log, prop strut, mast compression post, hatches, rails, so-on and so-on. The problem is (and my biggest gripe with Hunter) is that they destroyed all the drawings. No one seems to be willing or able to explain why. For that matter, as you've discovered, Hunter would prefer that older boats (Mostly those more than 6 moinths old) simply disappear off the face of the earth and not bother them and not present an obstacle to selling new boats. That obviously is not going to happen. Hunter might be well served to realize that in large part the sale of older boats is what enables people to buy new boats. They should be kissing us buyers of older boats, not kissing us off. Unfortunately you ran into a bunch of typical nitwits who probably thought they were awfully cute. Typical used car salesman mentality. As to your clearance problen, I wish I had a definitve answer for you. My 33 does the same thing with water on the floor of the head compartment. What I can tell you is that it has been my experiencte that there is at least an inch of clearance between the hull and liner in most areas. The shower sump is flat while the hull under it is slightly "V'ed", which means there is more than likely better than 1 inch. How to find out? Drill a very small hole in the pan, say 1/8 inch, being careful to go through ONLY the sump. Stick a piece of wire through the hole till it hits the inside of the hull. Mark it and pull it out. That length less the thickness of the pan is your clearance. Do this in several spots and you'll have a good picture of what's under there. I've done this in several spots.) If you decide not to proceed just mash some prepared epoxy putty into the holes , smooth it off and let it cure. Bingo! Good as new. Let us know how you do with this one.
Attitude
Well put on the current attitude of most Hunter employees. However there are a few, mostly old timers, in the shop and parts dept. that will do their best to help.
Well put on the current attitude of most Hunter employees. However there are a few, mostly old timers, in the shop and parts dept. that will do their best to help.
One Possibility Re: Records
..is that they have a records retention policy. Most legal advisors will recommend companies to select and strictly follow a designated procedure for destroying all records after a certain time. Seven years or less is common. I do not know about manufacturing, but would suppose even more so. The better I would guess your chances of not being hung by your own documents, or being judged today (and on today's standards) on older construction and design. I think the reality is that these documents tend to be more valuable to the plaintiff than the defendant. Unfortunate, but perhaps good risk management, even if a pain to the consumer. What do you think, Steve D? Rick D.
..is that they have a records retention policy. Most legal advisors will recommend companies to select and strictly follow a designated procedure for destroying all records after a certain time. Seven years or less is common. I do not know about manufacturing, but would suppose even more so. The better I would guess your chances of not being hung by your own documents, or being judged today (and on today's standards) on older construction and design. I think the reality is that these documents tend to be more valuable to the plaintiff than the defendant. Unfortunate, but perhaps good risk management, even if a pain to the consumer. What do you think, Steve D? Rick D.
plug it
I just purchased a '80 33 and quickly found the problem with the shower floor. After pumping out the sump I just plug the drain and forget it. Maybe, not an original fix but it works.
I just purchased a '80 33 and quickly found the problem with the shower floor. After pumping out the sump I just plug the drain and forget it. Maybe, not an original fix but it works.
I doubt most mfg will give you their design docs.
Rick: I agree with your sumation. If we don't have the documentation no one can prove much. Regardless of this, I doubt that most mfg will be willing to give you the design docs. That would be like asking IBM for their circuit board design. They are not going to give them to you today or 10 years from now when they are obsolete. What many mfg will do is give you a line drawing of the layout, plumbing, electrical etc. I happen to know that this stuff is not available from Hunter.
Rick: I agree with your sumation. If we don't have the documentation no one can prove much. Regardless of this, I doubt that most mfg will be willing to give you the design docs. That would be like asking IBM for their circuit board design. They are not going to give them to you today or 10 years from now when they are obsolete. What many mfg will do is give you a line drawing of the layout, plumbing, electrical etc. I happen to know that this stuff is not available from Hunter.
Hunter 35 Drawings
Hunter did use drawings to build their boats. In fact, I have two drawings from that vintage Hunter for my boat, an '88 Hunter 35: a Deck Plan and a Sail Plan and Profile. These are "blue-line" about 24 x 36 or so. The drawings look really nice. There was one change that I noticed from the drawings: the backstay on the production model is attached to the aft deck corners where as on the drawings they showed the stay going to the lower part of the stern. Everything else, though, appears the way it was built. Used them for coming up with a dodger design. Also, if I ever want to make a half-hull I have something for starters. Don't have the hull sections which would be handy or anything else but this is better than nothing.
Hunter did use drawings to build their boats. In fact, I have two drawings from that vintage Hunter for my boat, an '88 Hunter 35: a Deck Plan and a Sail Plan and Profile. These are "blue-line" about 24 x 36 or so. The drawings look really nice. There was one change that I noticed from the drawings: the backstay on the production model is attached to the aft deck corners where as on the drawings they showed the stay going to the lower part of the stern. Everything else, though, appears the way it was built. Used them for coming up with a dodger design. Also, if I ever want to make a half-hull I have something for starters. Don't have the hull sections which would be handy or anything else but this is better than nothing.
No drawings???
No drawings???!!! Re this (from Mr Nantz): 'The problem is that [Hunter] destroyed all the drawings. No one seems to be willing or able to explain why.' Answer (which should be a no-brainer): Hunter has absolutely NO motivation to support old (Cherubini-designed) product. Once a product is out of product seven years, they have no obligation to either. In fact, if you think on it, all the attention given to my dad's '70s-era work here on the owners' web probably cheeses them off. Of COURSE the sales rep suggested to Mr Timmons that he buy a new boat instead! --that's how that guy gets paid! I sympathise with anyone frustrated by Hunter-staff 'attitudes' which I assure you are as bewildering to me as they are to anyone else. When I knew Hunter they were affable and enthusiastic, the first generation of people in a new and exciting enterprise. As sales reps became more important in the organisation than sailors, the curse of marketing replaced the love for the product. Sadly this is true in many growing companies and one reason why so many people are disatisfied with modern 'business ethics' --an oxymoron, I know! The sad thing is that Hunter does not realise that by encouraging used-boat ownership they actually would build brand loyalty and ultimately stimulate interest in new product (look at recent Honda commercials for used cars to see my point). But these days 'marketing wisdom' is another oxymoron! Oh, almost forgot-- I have lots of working drawings for the original Hunter series. I've said before that I have ALL my father's remaining archives. Consider the source. J Cherubini II JComet@aol.com
No drawings???!!! Re this (from Mr Nantz): 'The problem is that [Hunter] destroyed all the drawings. No one seems to be willing or able to explain why.' Answer (which should be a no-brainer): Hunter has absolutely NO motivation to support old (Cherubini-designed) product. Once a product is out of product seven years, they have no obligation to either. In fact, if you think on it, all the attention given to my dad's '70s-era work here on the owners' web probably cheeses them off. Of COURSE the sales rep suggested to Mr Timmons that he buy a new boat instead! --that's how that guy gets paid! I sympathise with anyone frustrated by Hunter-staff 'attitudes' which I assure you are as bewildering to me as they are to anyone else. When I knew Hunter they were affable and enthusiastic, the first generation of people in a new and exciting enterprise. As sales reps became more important in the organisation than sailors, the curse of marketing replaced the love for the product. Sadly this is true in many growing companies and one reason why so many people are disatisfied with modern 'business ethics' --an oxymoron, I know! The sad thing is that Hunter does not realise that by encouraging used-boat ownership they actually would build brand loyalty and ultimately stimulate interest in new product (look at recent Honda commercials for used cars to see my point). But these days 'marketing wisdom' is another oxymoron! Oh, almost forgot-- I have lots of working drawings for the original Hunter series. I've said before that I have ALL my father's remaining archives. Consider the source. J Cherubini II JComet@aol.com
Which explains Why - - - -
- - - Frank Butler of Catalina fame is so intereted in long after market service. Catalina has an almost cult-like following. he still supportsthe older models and sells upgrade kits. Might that explain why people so readily move up within the catalina line?
- - - Frank Butler of Catalina fame is so intereted in long after market service. Catalina has an almost cult-like following. he still supportsthe older models and sells upgrade kits. Might that explain why people so readily move up within the catalina line?
I've not read all the posts, but......
I have gotten pretty good support from Hunter when I have had questions about this or that. Recently, I pulled for bottom work and found I needed to replace the strut bearing... called Hunter Tech support and got the voice mail. Left message of my question as to size and replacement on my 1982 Hunter 33, thought well, prob. have to fig. out on my own, but not 20 minutes later Hunter called with the specs. I needed and appoligized for taking so long to call me back. I've been pretty pleased so far in my 20 years of experience. To the shower question, I believe the area under the shower bilge is for water to run thur from the rear of the boat, say from the rudder if it leaks, or from water entering from locker lids and from the prop shaft. This water runs down the "V" until it makes its way to the bilge were its pumped over board. One small solution is to get the plastic grid stuff from West or BoatUS and cover the 2 1/2 sq. foot area with that. That way, you have a raised grid or grate to stand on and all water is free to flow back to the shower sump. Looks good also. I'll take a pic next time up and post it.
I have gotten pretty good support from Hunter when I have had questions about this or that. Recently, I pulled for bottom work and found I needed to replace the strut bearing... called Hunter Tech support and got the voice mail. Left message of my question as to size and replacement on my 1982 Hunter 33, thought well, prob. have to fig. out on my own, but not 20 minutes later Hunter called with the specs. I needed and appoligized for taking so long to call me back. I've been pretty pleased so far in my 20 years of experience. To the shower question, I believe the area under the shower bilge is for water to run thur from the rear of the boat, say from the rudder if it leaks, or from water entering from locker lids and from the prop shaft. This water runs down the "V" until it makes its way to the bilge were its pumped over board. One small solution is to get the plastic grid stuff from West or BoatUS and cover the 2 1/2 sq. foot area with that. That way, you have a raised grid or grate to stand on and all water is free to flow back to the shower sump. Looks good also. I'll take a pic next time up and post it.
Plastic Grate
Plastic grate would be a possibility, however in addition to the residual water in the shower sump, I frequently take on additional water due to the fact that the through hull is at the water line, and when heeled over becomes submerged. I guess I could combat that with a vented loop?
Plastic grate would be a possibility, however in addition to the residual water in the shower sump, I frequently take on additional water due to the fact that the through hull is at the water line, and when heeled over becomes submerged. I guess I could combat that with a vented loop?
Vented loop might not help
Vented loops break a siphon, but they won't prevent water under pressure from going through them. A high arch in the hose would do just as much good, but might not do ANY good either. And either one would allow whatever dirty water is the hose between the sump and the top of the loop to run back down. The only REAL solution may be a seacock on the thru-hull...but without easy access to it, that's not a good solution either. Even with easy access, it would be a major PITA to have to open it each time you want to shower and close it afterward. A possible solution is a one-way valve in the sump drain line. However, you'd have to keep the sump VERY clean to prevent the valve from becoming clogged with soap scum etc.
Vented loops break a siphon, but they won't prevent water under pressure from going through them. A high arch in the hose would do just as much good, but might not do ANY good either. And either one would allow whatever dirty water is the hose between the sump and the top of the loop to run back down. The only REAL solution may be a seacock on the thru-hull...but without easy access to it, that's not a good solution either. Even with easy access, it would be a major PITA to have to open it each time you want to shower and close it afterward. A possible solution is a one-way valve in the sump drain line. However, you'd have to keep the sump VERY clean to prevent the valve from becoming clogged with soap scum etc.
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