NMEA 2000 - Follow The Instructions

Feb 6, 1998
11,756
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I hear it said all the time that N2K is "easy" and it is much easier than the older 0183 standard but damage can still be done by not following the instructions.

I was recently called to a vessel for some NMEA 2000 (N2K) issues. I did not do the install and they owner apparently did it with the "help" of someone else. Really not much help as you'll see.. An N2K system is NOT Lego's! Just because a terminal fits somewhere does NOT make it the correct topography for the system..

The first step in any N2K issues is always a survey of the existing devices that should show up, GPS antenna, rate compass / heading sensor, sounder, speed, temp, radar, wind, all instruments, AP, plotter/plotters etc.. I dug into the vessel and found two plotters, radome, wind, speed/temp/depth (DST-800), Auto Pilot, GPS antenna, rate compass/heading sensor and instruments.

Complaints: No sea water temp, no wind, no heading sensor, radar turning on and off and no data repeated on the plotters.

Bottom line: The N2K bus was a MESS and installed completely incorrectly! There are four main parts to an N2K bus.

1) Back Bone - This runs throughout the vessel and allows instruments and power drops to be fed into the system via the drop port of a Tee. The back bone must have terminators (resistors) at each end.

2) Drop Ports - Devices such as plotters, instruments, heading sensors, depth/speed/temp etc. are intended to come into the system via the drop port on the back bone tee's, or a 4 port expanded etc.. These types of devices are intended to plug into the drop port NOT the back bone side of the tee..

3) Terminators - You can not leave an open port on the back bone and MUST be very careful with certain devices such as wind that may act as a terminator not to plug it into a drop port but rather into the back bone. No back bone terminator, no work. Plug in a wind that acts as a "terminator" to a "drop port" and you just created issue. Wire up a wind instrument that does not have a resistor, and fail to install an "in-line" resistor, and you once again create problems.

4) Power - Power can be fed into the system in two ways. You can use a back bone "power tee" which is inserted into the back bone or via a "power drop" which is inserted into a drop port.. The two are different and you need to know which type you are using.

What I Found:

*Wind instrument which is a "terminator device" plugged into a "drop port" = BAD!

*Power drop fed into the back bone = Incorrect For this brand/system the power feed comes into the drop ports. Some N2K systems use a "power tee". The two wire into the system differently and the NMEA standard allows for this it is up to you to read the instructions for the products you have.. A "power tee" is inserted into the back bone but a power drop is inserted into the drop port.

*Tee drop ports used as back bone and back bone ports used as drop ports..

*Multiple 18" N2K drop cables interconnecting tee's with devices plugged into any old port. It was NOT set up as a back bone with drops but rather a spider web with $hit plugged in where ever it would fit/mate to...

*Power drop near mast base was using vessels "bonding system" as DC negative. The green bonding wire was terminated within a few inches of the starter motor. This could have induced voltage transients into the N2K bus as well as led to DC corrosion on the bonding system, which is NOT designed to carry any current.

* Instruments were "drop daisy chained" like older ST-60's but not dropped back into the back bone. This can work but drop daisy chaining is advised against. Each instrument should have its own drop into the back bone or the instruments are inserted into the back bone and become part of the back bone path....

*Plotter feeding one end of back bone not into a drop port and not a terminator..

The list goes on and on... In short I had to add 5 tees and one terminator to the system as well as install multiple new drop cables.

Once the system was wired correctly I reset the system and did an auto search for connected devices. With wind plugged into the system it killed the entire N2K bus and only the plotter was visible. Unfortunately it took connecting and disconnecting every device in order to figure out which one was causing the bus issue. With wind out of the system I was able to see most devices. The speed/depth temp failed to show temp which meant an internal failure of the DST-800's temp circuit. Wind was dead and causing system issues, and the heading sensor was also not showing up & dead.. All in all, considering the poor installation and complete disregard for the instructions, he is lucky to only need to replace about $1800.00 worth of equipment..

Please, please, please read the instructions or hire or consult a qualified tech. Through a long conversation with tech support it was determined that the original configuration led to the demise of wind, heading sensor and the temp circuit of the DST-800.

Easy? Yes and no, especially if you ignore the installation manual.....
 
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Likes: Chevy1217
Feb 8, 2014
1,300
Columbia 36 Muskegon
Yea, that's why my boat still has all its original electronics. Nothings interfaced with anything. Don't need it, don't want it.
 
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Likes: Allan12210
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
I just wanna say, I love this guy. His rants are THE BEST! After reading what he says, I actually want to go do the job. It must be hero worship.
As usual, thank you, Mainesail, for accurate instruction.
 
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Likes: justsomeguy
Feb 20, 2011
8,062
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
Who couldn't appreciate someone admonishing others to "follow the instructions"?
 
Dec 28, 2010
462
Catalina 380 san pedro
Isn't amazing. I admonish the technicians here all the time " why don't you try following the instructions?"
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Which is one plus mark for the Ray STng wiring scheme. Colour coded connectors so the technicians who refuse to read the book can't screw it up.
Still doesn't explain why temp from the Dst800 worked quite well with lighthouse 12.x, and refuses to work with lighthouse 14.
No matter, it may not be hard water. It's still cold.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,935
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Ditto on the Mainsail appreciation. But I'm giving kudos to CJ for the simplicity thing. The virtual reality of the top end electronics robs the recreational boater of the outdoor experience. Stick your head up and see what's around! Then look at the instruments, if necessary.
 
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Likes: Allan12210

HMT2

.
Mar 20, 2014
900
Hunter 31 828 Shoreacres, TX
Mainsail, that's a great tip that some wind instruments act like terminators. Is there a brand or type that does that?

I put together a N2K network on my boat. It's still small with a tee for power , one for wind, one to the MFD/Chartplotter and one to my Simrad RS35 VHF/AIS which thanks to Mainsail's wise counsel has the most current software on it. (Thanks Mainsail!). So far it is been simple and trouble free. (I know...famous last words.) But I did RTFM!
 
May 20, 2016
3,015
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
That is one nice thing about Raymarines implementation of nmea2k. It is a bit harder to Mix up backbone and device nodes

Les
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Stick your head up and see what's around!
And that's the very reason for all the toys, the AP can steer to the wind input better than anybody freeing you up to trim, enjoy the scenery, or watch the non digital folk slowly fading into the background.
 
Jan 25, 2011
2,439
S2 11.0A Anacortes, WA
Easy? Yes, it actually is. If you're hesitant, read the instructions and know the terminology and what the individual ng bus parts do and how each equipment hooks up. The locals I help out do not understand what the terminators do. Once explained, the light bulb lights! Then, make a schematic diagram of your proposed system. Lots of help here and also RM help forum will help with your diagram. Then follow your own directions!!
 
Jan 25, 2011
2,439
S2 11.0A Anacortes, WA
Whoops! For some reason, i was thinking Seatalk ng was being discussed. Same principles apply though.....
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Really? Terminators? Holy cow, this sounds more like 10BaseT to me. More like N2K is going backwards, not forwards. Please don't tell me it uses 50Ω coax as its means for a "backbone".
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
8,004
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
The world of WIRELESS Network protocol is happening now. Wired power supply is still with us.
this sounds more like 10BaseT to me
It is very close.;)
Maine does it again! He cleared up the why and how?
N2M and STNG (SeaTalk (ng) ) are very similar and can be converted and/or connected together with the right device.
The Admirals iPad can interface wirelessly with all of Raymarine STNG devices as a remote MultiFunctionalDisplay (MFD) with touch screen control.
There at least one exception and why there is something different than using 10BaseT or BluTooth.

AutoPilot Safety!

What would you like to happen to your AutoPilot steering on loss of signal or failure?

The networking speeds of N2M and STNG are needed for the most advance ( nearly 3D imaging) CHIRP Sonar and now CHIRP like Radar.

Using these advanced networks, the world of internet like systems are expandable and marine compatible.

Many don't want this or need this.;)

Most of this was Military top secret 20+ years ago.

Wait for it....
Hackers are coming...
Jim...
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Really? Terminators? Holy cow, this sounds more like 10BaseT to me. More like N2K is going backwards, not forwards. Please don't tell me it uses 50Ω coax as its means for a "backbone".
As a systems engineer in a past life, I get where your coming from but, I would imagine that that having a bus configuration reduces the amount of wiring needed in that every device does not need to be a home run to a centrally located switch. Also, simrad's simnet implementation of nmea2k allows devices to be daisy chained which makes installing, say 3 or 4 instrument displays very simple.

My network was factory installed, but it is simple to trouble shoot if I have a problem (provided I know where all the tees are (which I don't)). Though I haven't had any issues yet.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Pretty much my experience. A barrel full of seatalk 0183 wire came off the boat and was replaced by a N2K cable and a few hubs.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,756
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Also, simrad's simnet implementation of nmea2k allows devices to be daisy chained which makes installing, say 3 or 4 instrument displays very simple.
The key here is that when daisy chaining instruments on SimNet the instruments need to become part of the back-bone or the end of a back bone with a terminator. Unfortunately instruments are often in the wrong location for an end of back-bone termination so we need a back-bone supply and return to get back into the back-bone. It is not advised with Navico to daisy chain instruments off of a drop-cable and I see this far too often. You either wire the instruments as drops (my personal preference), insert them into the back-bone or place them at the end of a back-bone with a terminator.