Ok, so I have a line and a set of blocks at the bottom of the mast to the bottom of the boom. I am guessing, but its purpose seems to be holding the mast down, opposite of the topping lift? What is the benifit of using this adjustment and how is it properly used? Sorry if this has been discussed, I am still trying to figure everything out.
Next newbie question - Boom Vang
- Thread starter Doghouse
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Great info on boom vangs in our archives
Have you tried them yet? Type in the words Boom Vang and you will get a long list of informative posts relating to that very item. Hope that helps.
Have you tried them yet? Type in the words Boom Vang and you will get a long list of informative posts relating to that very item. Hope that helps.
Vang
It holds down the boom not the mast. Most helpful running down wind or on a broad reach, when the main sheet tends to pull more towards the center than down, and the boom therefore rises, causing excess twist in the sail. Also useful for some finer trim in the main.
It holds down the boom not the mast. Most helpful running down wind or on a broad reach, when the main sheet tends to pull more towards the center than down, and the boom therefore rises, causing excess twist in the sail. Also useful for some finer trim in the main.
Briefly
If you are describing a block and tackle set that runs from the base of the mast at about a 45 degree angle to an attachment point at the bottom of the boom, you have described a boom vang. While sailing with the wind abeam or aft, strong winds will tend to put a big "belly" in the mainsail. The effect of this can be that your sail becomes overpowered, causing greater heeling. Most sailors frown upon this as it is usually less efficient, slows down the boat and tends to scare the passengers. A boom vang allows you to control the curve and twist in the sail; tightening the vang pulls down on the boom, flattening and depowering the mainsail. This means a more efficient, safer, faster and more comfortable ride. I view a boom vang as an important piece of safety equipment, especially on smaller boats. As you correctly point out, you can use the topping line in the opposite manner; in light winds you can use it to raise the end of the boom and thereby induce more curve and therefore more power in the mainsail.
If you are describing a block and tackle set that runs from the base of the mast at about a 45 degree angle to an attachment point at the bottom of the boom, you have described a boom vang. While sailing with the wind abeam or aft, strong winds will tend to put a big "belly" in the mainsail. The effect of this can be that your sail becomes overpowered, causing greater heeling. Most sailors frown upon this as it is usually less efficient, slows down the boat and tends to scare the passengers. A boom vang allows you to control the curve and twist in the sail; tightening the vang pulls down on the boom, flattening and depowering the mainsail. This means a more efficient, safer, faster and more comfortable ride. I view a boom vang as an important piece of safety equipment, especially on smaller boats. As you correctly point out, you can use the topping line in the opposite manner; in light winds you can use it to raise the end of the boom and thereby induce more curve and therefore more power in the mainsail.
Vang
Doghouse: Your correct that the boom vang is attached to the boom but more importantly the boom is attached to the sail and the effect of adjusting the vang is that you are changing the shape of the sail. You indicated your trying to figure everything out from a sail trim standpoint. You'll be old and gray doing it piecemeal. What you need to do is jump in and digest it all at once. The problem with most sail trim books is that the info is all over the place. For example, the boom vang may be on pages 35, 68, 172 and 356. You have no idea how frustrating that is when your trying to put the whole idea of the boom vang, or any other sail trim control, together. I've solved that problem for you with my book The Sail Trim Users Guide. Everything you need to know about ALL sail trim control for the main or jib is in its own section. Everything you will ever need to know about telltales is on 7 pages and the list goes on and on. There are also step by step proceedures so you don't start at step 5 then go to step 3 and then step 1. My Sail Trim Chart is an outline of the book. It is laminated so you can take it on board with you and take the guess work out of sail trim adjustment. Any beginner sailor who applied themselves by digesting my material would have an excellent grasp of sail trim within 1 week. Sail trim is not nuclear research which goes on and on. It is like riding a bike - once you ride it that's it. In other words, the info is limiting. Where do you think I get the answers to these sail trim problems that I've answered over the years? I don't dream up the answers each time - I just flip open my book.
Doghouse: Your correct that the boom vang is attached to the boom but more importantly the boom is attached to the sail and the effect of adjusting the vang is that you are changing the shape of the sail. You indicated your trying to figure everything out from a sail trim standpoint. You'll be old and gray doing it piecemeal. What you need to do is jump in and digest it all at once. The problem with most sail trim books is that the info is all over the place. For example, the boom vang may be on pages 35, 68, 172 and 356. You have no idea how frustrating that is when your trying to put the whole idea of the boom vang, or any other sail trim control, together. I've solved that problem for you with my book The Sail Trim Users Guide. Everything you need to know about ALL sail trim control for the main or jib is in its own section. Everything you will ever need to know about telltales is on 7 pages and the list goes on and on. There are also step by step proceedures so you don't start at step 5 then go to step 3 and then step 1. My Sail Trim Chart is an outline of the book. It is laminated so you can take it on board with you and take the guess work out of sail trim adjustment. Any beginner sailor who applied themselves by digesting my material would have an excellent grasp of sail trim within 1 week. Sail trim is not nuclear research which goes on and on. It is like riding a bike - once you ride it that's it. In other words, the info is limiting. Where do you think I get the answers to these sail trim problems that I've answered over the years? I don't dream up the answers each time - I just flip open my book.
That dang vang
I am somewhat new to this devise myself, but I understand how it is supposed to work! I think you meant "holding the boom down (not the mast) opposite the topping lift". If you meant the mast, you must really BE a newbie!
It doesn't really have anything to do with the topping lift since the only purpose of that is to hold the boom up while the sail is down. But the vang does prevent the boom from lifting and creating twist in the mainsail (when you don't want twist). If you do want some twist in the mainsail for proper trim as shown by the telltales, you can ease the vang to some degree as desired. This component of the rigging does not seem to be all that affective to me (since I am relatively new and inexperienced) because when we are beating upwind, which we are doing most of the time, we are close hauled and sheeted in, which seems to be doing the same job as the intended purpose of the vang. So when I make an attempt to trim the vang, it is usually already tight and can't be tightened any furthur. To me it seems that it is really only effective when the mainsheet is eased out for a broad reach or a run. That way, the vang holds the boom down to prevent excessive twist, while the mainsheet is eased out and therefore ineffective in holding the boom down. So it seems to me that it is more useful when the boom is pushed outboard from the centerline of the boat. As you can tell, only the vang can then maintain the same angle between mast and boom as the boom swings out. Like I said, I rarely even tweak this devise, and some boats don't even have a vang so it is not an essential element(like a mainsheet or a jib sheet). But I did just replace the sheets for the vang so I intend to spend more time this summer learning about it.
I am somewhat new to this devise myself, but I understand how it is supposed to work! I think you meant "holding the boom down (not the mast) opposite the topping lift". If you meant the mast, you must really BE a newbie!
It doesn't really have anything to do with the topping lift since the only purpose of that is to hold the boom up while the sail is down. But the vang does prevent the boom from lifting and creating twist in the mainsail (when you don't want twist). If you do want some twist in the mainsail for proper trim as shown by the telltales, you can ease the vang to some degree as desired. This component of the rigging does not seem to be all that affective to me (since I am relatively new and inexperienced) because when we are beating upwind, which we are doing most of the time, we are close hauled and sheeted in, which seems to be doing the same job as the intended purpose of the vang. So when I make an attempt to trim the vang, it is usually already tight and can't be tightened any furthur. To me it seems that it is really only effective when the mainsheet is eased out for a broad reach or a run. That way, the vang holds the boom down to prevent excessive twist, while the mainsheet is eased out and therefore ineffective in holding the boom down. So it seems to me that it is more useful when the boom is pushed outboard from the centerline of the boat. As you can tell, only the vang can then maintain the same angle between mast and boom as the boom swings out. Like I said, I rarely even tweak this devise, and some boats don't even have a vang so it is not an essential element(like a mainsheet or a jib sheet). But I did just replace the sheets for the vang so I intend to spend more time this summer learning about it. Thanks Mike & Scott
Since i guess most of the rest of the people who responded either were born on boats and know ever piece from the day they were born, or never make mistakes... I am just trying to figure out what each of the lines control and how to adjust them so that SWMBO and I can enjoy a days sail. I have no intention of racing but I would like to have a good idea of how to adjust my sails to prevent problems and efficiently get away from the dock and back to it. I think I have heard too many wisecracks from people today.
Since i guess most of the rest of the people who responded either were born on boats and know ever piece from the day they were born, or never make mistakes... I am just trying to figure out what each of the lines control and how to adjust them so that SWMBO and I can enjoy a days sail. I have no intention of racing but I would like to have a good idea of how to adjust my sails to prevent problems and efficiently get away from the dock and back to it. I think I have heard too many wisecracks from people today.
Doghouse... do yourself a big service
and lay out a few bucks for a general book on sailing and sail trim. Don's is fine for sail trim, it's one of the many that I own, but there are many others available everywhere. I particularly like "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" by John Rousmaniere. See Link. Don is correct... don't learn this piecemeal. I say this because Scott's and Mike's advice conflicts with what I would tell you and it also conflicts with Don's comments. You don't have to race to understand proper sail trim.... actually that's what sailing is all about... maximizing/matching the boat to the conditions.
and lay out a few bucks for a general book on sailing and sail trim. Don's is fine for sail trim, it's one of the many that I own, but there are many others available everywhere. I particularly like "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" by John Rousmaniere. See Link. Don is correct... don't learn this piecemeal. I say this because Scott's and Mike's advice conflicts with what I would tell you and it also conflicts with Don's comments. You don't have to race to understand proper sail trim.... actually that's what sailing is all about... maximizing/matching the boat to the conditions.
Interpretation?
Doghouse - not trying to pick a fight, but I don't think the responses you got were very harsh. And I thought Mike and Scott's responses were essentially consistent with Don's approach (excepting the topping lift as light air sail control - let's not start that argument again!). Anyway, maybe it's all in the reading/interpretation, or maybe I just don't get it re the boom vang. That's certainly possible as I don't have one yet. Although I've sailed for a long time, I consider myself a newbie too because I've been mostly self taught. This board and Don's book have helped me more in 1 year than 20 years of stumbling around on my own.
Doghouse - not trying to pick a fight, but I don't think the responses you got were very harsh. And I thought Mike and Scott's responses were essentially consistent with Don's approach (excepting the topping lift as light air sail control - let's not start that argument again!). Anyway, maybe it's all in the reading/interpretation, or maybe I just don't get it re the boom vang. That's certainly possible as I don't have one yet. Although I've sailed for a long time, I consider myself a newbie too because I've been mostly self taught. This board and Don's book have helped me more in 1 year than 20 years of stumbling around on my own.
re: advice from Mike, Scott,
Doghouse.... let me try to explain my previous comment regarding all this "advice" and why it pays to get a consistant instructional to make things less confusing. Mike's comment was that the vang reduces the "belly" put in the mainsail by big winds. I would challenge this statement and suggest that the belly or increased draft depth is controlled by other devices, such as the outhaul or backstay or what ever control you use to induce mast bend. The fact is when sailing downwind or on a broad reach you WANT a fuller, rather than a flatter, sail. So the vang allows you to control the twist on these points of sail since the mainsheet is too far extended to pull down on the boom. Easing the backstay, the outhaul, the halyard and the cunningham will allow a fuller sail with the vang controlling the curve of the leech (twist). Applying the vang does not remove the belly, it closes (straightens) the leech of the mainsail. If you are trying to depower the main on a close or beam reach you want the leech opened (twist). Sailing upwind, you remove the "belly" by applying the aforementioned controls to achieve a flatter sail as conditions dictate. That said, some boats may be able to induce a bit of mast bend by using the vang to push the boom forward... on a dinghy for instance. On my masthead rigged Cat 27 it doesn't have any effect. Now, Scott's comment was truthful in that he admits he is a new sailor. Throughout his post he says things like "it seems to me" "I rarely tweak the device" or "I am relatively new and inexperienced" I won't criticize him for making the effort but you must realize that the quality of the advice is limited by the experience of the advisor. If you can get past Don's sales pitch you'll find some solid info from an experienced teacher. (love 'ya don, I have your book and chart) I'm not an old salt (well, old, maybe) but I've enough experience to advise you to start a library so you can get some of your questions consistantly answered by qualified experts. Here's a link to some online instruction you might find beneficial.
Doghouse.... let me try to explain my previous comment regarding all this "advice" and why it pays to get a consistant instructional to make things less confusing. Mike's comment was that the vang reduces the "belly" put in the mainsail by big winds. I would challenge this statement and suggest that the belly or increased draft depth is controlled by other devices, such as the outhaul or backstay or what ever control you use to induce mast bend. The fact is when sailing downwind or on a broad reach you WANT a fuller, rather than a flatter, sail. So the vang allows you to control the twist on these points of sail since the mainsheet is too far extended to pull down on the boom. Easing the backstay, the outhaul, the halyard and the cunningham will allow a fuller sail with the vang controlling the curve of the leech (twist). Applying the vang does not remove the belly, it closes (straightens) the leech of the mainsail. If you are trying to depower the main on a close or beam reach you want the leech opened (twist). Sailing upwind, you remove the "belly" by applying the aforementioned controls to achieve a flatter sail as conditions dictate. That said, some boats may be able to induce a bit of mast bend by using the vang to push the boom forward... on a dinghy for instance. On my masthead rigged Cat 27 it doesn't have any effect. Now, Scott's comment was truthful in that he admits he is a new sailor. Throughout his post he says things like "it seems to me" "I rarely tweak the device" or "I am relatively new and inexperienced" I won't criticize him for making the effort but you must realize that the quality of the advice is limited by the experience of the advisor. If you can get past Don's sales pitch you'll find some solid info from an experienced teacher. (love 'ya don, I have your book and chart) I'm not an old salt (well, old, maybe) but I've enough experience to advise you to start a library so you can get some of your questions consistantly answered by qualified experts. Here's a link to some online instruction you might find beneficial.
Hey Doghouse...
We're ALL learning - it's just that some of these guys are higher on the curve than the rest of us. And we take some pleasure in teasing each other and smarting off from time to time, but no real offense is intended. If you want to find some real vitriol, check out the Politics, Religion, and other Angst Forum - compared to those guys we're a bunch of pikers. We all started at zero, and we old guys envy you young'uns with more sailing days in your kitty, but we have just as much fun. I think Uffa Fox was an originator of the boom vang, which they called a "kicking strap" back then ('20s or '30s?), and my memory tells me they originally tied it to the floor/keel rather than the base of the mast. At that time it was used almost exclusively to keep the boom from rising when sailing downwind. Now it is sometimes used to trim the sail even when not sailing downwind. You can buy a rigid vang, which not only can pull the boom down, but can push it up a little too, depending on how you trim it. I went where few men have gone a couple of years ago and discovered that a rigid vang will also support the inboard part of the boom if it breaks under great stress - it paid for itself that day, as otherwise I might still be spitting aluminum.
We're ALL learning - it's just that some of these guys are higher on the curve than the rest of us. And we take some pleasure in teasing each other and smarting off from time to time, but no real offense is intended. If you want to find some real vitriol, check out the Politics, Religion, and other Angst Forum - compared to those guys we're a bunch of pikers. We all started at zero, and we old guys envy you young'uns with more sailing days in your kitty, but we have just as much fun. I think Uffa Fox was an originator of the boom vang, which they called a "kicking strap" back then ('20s or '30s?), and my memory tells me they originally tied it to the floor/keel rather than the base of the mast. At that time it was used almost exclusively to keep the boom from rising when sailing downwind. Now it is sometimes used to trim the sail even when not sailing downwind. You can buy a rigid vang, which not only can pull the boom down, but can push it up a little too, depending on how you trim it. I went where few men have gone a couple of years ago and discovered that a rigid vang will also support the inboard part of the boom if it breaks under great stress - it paid for itself that day, as otherwise I might still be spitting aluminum.
I think Uffa did them in the 50's
One of his famous designs - Albacore Dinghy - was one of the first to use the kicking strap - now called boom vang. I owned 2 Albacore sailboats over the years, and we used the vang extensively. Now, we sail a much more comfortable sailboat and have much dryer conditions than those days in the dinghy. We still remember the valuable vang lessons we learned from our dinghy sailing days though, and put them to use now on a 4 ton sailboat to consistantly win fleet championships.
One of his famous designs - Albacore Dinghy - was one of the first to use the kicking strap - now called boom vang. I owned 2 Albacore sailboats over the years, and we used the vang extensively. Now, we sail a much more comfortable sailboat and have much dryer conditions than those days in the dinghy. We still remember the valuable vang lessons we learned from our dinghy sailing days though, and put them to use now on a 4 ton sailboat to consistantly win fleet championships.
Thanks for the info
Thanks for the info. That explains a lot. I have not been adjusting it at all and was trying to figure out if it would help. The History lesson was intersting also. I have enough angst in my professional life, and hope to use sailing as a deversion from it. I am working on a couple of the sailing "tests" that they had on the US Sailing link you provided. Very common knowledge stuff. Maybe this summer I will take one of their courses.
Thanks for the info. That explains a lot. I have not been adjusting it at all and was trying to figure out if it would help. The History lesson was intersting also. I have enough angst in my professional life, and hope to use sailing as a deversion from it. I am working on a couple of the sailing "tests" that they had on the US Sailing link you provided. Very common knowledge stuff. Maybe this summer I will take one of their courses.
And don't rule out racing...
Though it's not for everyone, it is a great way to test your evolving skills and to learn a lot in a short time. Most racers are happy to share their knowledge, especially with someone they don't see as an immediate threat (a condition that has worked in my favor over the last few years.) Recreational sailing can be extremely relaxing, while racing is anything BUT relaxing - but it's just the other side of the sailing coin.
Though it's not for everyone, it is a great way to test your evolving skills and to learn a lot in a short time. Most racers are happy to share their knowledge, especially with someone they don't see as an immediate threat (a condition that has worked in my favor over the last few years.) Recreational sailing can be extremely relaxing, while racing is anything BUT relaxing - but it's just the other side of the sailing coin.
We all were newbies at one time...
and before the itnernet there were books. They are still available. I recommend using books in conjunction with and in addition to these valuable and helpful comments.
and before the itnernet there were books. They are still available. I recommend using books in conjunction with and in addition to these valuable and helpful comments.
Sail Trim Library
My sail trim library consists of about 30 books by various authors, at least 10 videos and probably close to 800 articles on sail trim. Here's the bottom line - they all say the same thing!! Believe it or not the total amount of sail trim knowledge is a relatively small collection of material. While the body of material is small it is virtually impossable to move from the beginner level to intermediate level merely by means of this forum. It can't be done. As Joe and Bob have indicated some of the responses are just off the mark. I've seen some over the years that are so wrong that I don't know where to start. In a lot of cases I just let it slide and hope listers will follow my suggestion and TRY every technique (even mine) to be sure it works for them. Over the years I have had YC friends, dock neighbors and customers approach me and ask if I would sail with them and teach them how to only use the outhaul or the boom vang or whatever. In my early days I would attempt to do that but I found it never really worked. If they had basic knowledge of draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack it would work other wise it would be like dealing only with the clutch in a car. I no longer will deal with only one control for beginners. If they want to spend the time to understand the whole concept of sail trim then I'll spend the time and in 90% of the cases I do it FREE. Many So Ca sailors will attest to that fact. I arrive at their boat with a model sail boat and we go over every aspect of sail trim BEFORE we leave the dock. In less than 1:30 minutes they get a mini sail trim seminar, THEN we go sailing. With everbody on the same page it makes the instructions so much easier and beneficial. As far as pushing my products on this forum - that's the way it goes here. Additionally, why would I recommend someone elses products (books) over my own? It is like running for office and you vote for the other guy!!
My sail trim library consists of about 30 books by various authors, at least 10 videos and probably close to 800 articles on sail trim. Here's the bottom line - they all say the same thing!! Believe it or not the total amount of sail trim knowledge is a relatively small collection of material. While the body of material is small it is virtually impossable to move from the beginner level to intermediate level merely by means of this forum. It can't be done. As Joe and Bob have indicated some of the responses are just off the mark. I've seen some over the years that are so wrong that I don't know where to start. In a lot of cases I just let it slide and hope listers will follow my suggestion and TRY every technique (even mine) to be sure it works for them. Over the years I have had YC friends, dock neighbors and customers approach me and ask if I would sail with them and teach them how to only use the outhaul or the boom vang or whatever. In my early days I would attempt to do that but I found it never really worked. If they had basic knowledge of draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack it would work other wise it would be like dealing only with the clutch in a car. I no longer will deal with only one control for beginners. If they want to spend the time to understand the whole concept of sail trim then I'll spend the time and in 90% of the cases I do it FREE. Many So Ca sailors will attest to that fact. I arrive at their boat with a model sail boat and we go over every aspect of sail trim BEFORE we leave the dock. In less than 1:30 minutes they get a mini sail trim seminar, THEN we go sailing. With everbody on the same page it makes the instructions so much easier and beneficial. As far as pushing my products on this forum - that's the way it goes here. Additionally, why would I recommend someone elses products (books) over my own? It is like running for office and you vote for the other guy!!
The other side of the sail trim coin
It seems to me that many new sailors put off sail trim skills because they aren't interested in racing and they don't care to go fast. I don't recall ever having that attitude or idea but I do clearly remember what was on my mind when I bought a boat that had very simple rigging: no traveller, no cunningham, and only single fixed inboard jib sheet blocks. I figured I didn't need all the extra controls because I "wasn't interested in racing and I didn't care to go fast". I'm still not into racing (except when another boat is going in the same direction), but what I've come to realize, and I'm pleased that it's been brought up in this disussion (it often isn't), is that sail trim controls and skills are also used to _depower_ the sails for a safer ride when the wind gets stronger. You don't scare the passengers and besides, you can sail faster by heeling less. I'd guess this is true for all boats, but the point of "too much heel" probably varies greatly with the boat; not so much with the passengers. I can't imagine sailing without a boom vang (or an outhaul that actually works). I never touched either one during my first season of sailing. Now I use them all the time. You also want to know how to heave-to and get out of irons. You can search this forum for these topics. I think they came up last year; two years ago at the most, it seems. ...RickM...
It seems to me that many new sailors put off sail trim skills because they aren't interested in racing and they don't care to go fast. I don't recall ever having that attitude or idea but I do clearly remember what was on my mind when I bought a boat that had very simple rigging: no traveller, no cunningham, and only single fixed inboard jib sheet blocks. I figured I didn't need all the extra controls because I "wasn't interested in racing and I didn't care to go fast". I'm still not into racing (except when another boat is going in the same direction), but what I've come to realize, and I'm pleased that it's been brought up in this disussion (it often isn't), is that sail trim controls and skills are also used to _depower_ the sails for a safer ride when the wind gets stronger. You don't scare the passengers and besides, you can sail faster by heeling less. I'd guess this is true for all boats, but the point of "too much heel" probably varies greatly with the boat; not so much with the passengers. I can't imagine sailing without a boom vang (or an outhaul that actually works). I never touched either one during my first season of sailing. Now I use them all the time. You also want to know how to heave-to and get out of irons. You can search this forum for these topics. I think they came up last year; two years ago at the most, it seems. ...RickM...
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